Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[banx]

Every egg introduced to support the BC farm industry was screened for pathogens at the source hatchery, screened for pathogens on arrival, reared in quarantine and screened again several times prior to being released into farm pens. That is an easy piece of information to access for anyone truly interested in the issue.

On the other hand, starting in 1905 and proceeding through until about 1935, some sixteen million Atlantic salmon were introduced as eggs, fry and smolts to various BC waters (http://msc.khamiahosting.com/sites/default/files/Timeline%20of%20Atlantic%20salmon%20in%20Pacific.pdf). These were brought in to try and establish a resident wild population to satisfy sports fishermen. As should be immediately apparent from the dates and technologies existing at that time, these salmon were neither screened for pathogens nor quarantined.

Even a halfwit should easily be able to tell which of the situations is the likelier vector should some non-native pathogen be present in our waters.

excellent, thank you, some times you need to dumb it down for us halfwits..... so if they are screened for pathogens and are deemed healthy, why do they grow up and get sick? husbandry techniques? close proximity to each other?  the pacific ocean is just to virulent of an ocean to support them?

Maybe you can explain it more for me.  how does a disease that was first 'discovered' in the atlantic, infecting atlantic salmon, show up in the pacific and get atlantics sick? All I have read is it 'may or or may not have been present here before'....  how did it get here with all the screening and assurance that they are healthy?  back in the early 1900's when they were put in rivers for sport fishing?

now if it was always here and because the pacific salmon have high resistance to ISAv, it must be our local pacific salmon getting the atlantics sick?  If thats the case, we can't let that happen. thats just bad business.

is the next logical step to elminate the source of the disease and just start culling wild pacifics?
i'm just trying to follow your reasoning.

what you tell me makes no sense. again, i'm just a halfwit.  they are tested, assured, inspected, guaranteed, stamped and stickered.  but they grow up and get sick? I don't know why, or how they would be getting sick with all these measures and fantastic systems you are telling me about. to quote steve is something "wrong?"

also, now maybe this logic might be lost on some of the higher IQ's on these pages.  so, we dumped a bunch of atlantics up and down the coast hoping to catch them.  The salmon don't take to the rivers and begin a natural life cycle.  we were unaware of the future consequences that introducing an alien spcies would do.  so now, 100 years later your paying the consequences?  because that virus managed to stay alive here (if it didnt exist before).  Thats what your telling me.... Then it can be reasoned that IF that virus was present here before the introduction of atlantic salmon and now you have atlantics getting sick, wouldn't you want them taken out of a volatile environment?   

so what types of consequences are we ignoring now by keeping atlantics in open pens in the pacific ocean?  the ocean floor is pretty much void of life under most farms.  and thats in a few short years.... you have currents flowing past these pens moving all sorts of waste products, food, feces, spent meds all over the ocean.

you would think maybe chile and norway would be good examples for us.  But no, our scientists are smarter here, are rules are the strictes in the world and we have the husbandry techniques to make sure we don't ruin the ocean and our wild stocks.  I'm lookin to buy a bridge, anyone have one for sale?

[Fisherbob]

If my posts annoy you, simply do not read them NB.

http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/we-sure-don%E2%80%99t-want-be-canoe-water-brothers

[banx]

The conclusions that i'm drawing from that link is that antifarm crowd, and this would probably go for a high, I might say 63-68%**  of the population is the same way.... that we are ignoring the facts because we  are stubborn and have our own misinformed view. regardless............... It would be interesting if this site conducted a survey of how many support open pen farming. or has this been done already?

Also, that the farming industry needs communication sites, not related to public relations at all mind you, so that they can raise "positive aquaculture awareness".  That awareness is necessary, because theres a whole lot of misinformed people out there corrupting the general populations mind with all their crazy shennanigans. 

That we are ignoring the plain and simple facts presented in front of us.

But I'm not ignoring.... I'm asking, which I really feel are not ignorant questions. About why you think, or why things have taken place, or why things go wrong.  To ask you questions such as; well what are the long term consequences? your answers are "well no one knows" and I'm supposed to say "great, continue on" 

it's interesting.... because the basic information I derive my conclusions from are very simple.  This process is done in an open ocean where you really have no idea what the long term consequences will be... drugs are used, though prescribed, flowing around in currents. Also there are issues with waste control and close proximity. There is of course the future potential of antibiotic resistance. Are these conclusions wrong?

I am pretty sure you would want me in your canoe man.

I am glad the science is sound, I would hope so being that we are canadian, but the confidence put in it to perpetuate this......process, is like I said, optimistic at best.

I hope your right, really. I really really hope you guys are right, that all this is cool.  Just remember guys, beef farmers never anticipated mad cow disease, and they still don't know where it came from. Salmon farming is still in its infancy, and I'm sure terrestrial farmers hundreds of years ago probably had the same confidence you have now.

I had to find it again but I read a 'survey' of sorts a while back. http://www.al.gov.bc.ca/fisheries/cabinet/Competitiveness_Survey.pdf
it's a conundrum.... it might be why I have problems with this open pen thing. 

farmers were asked to rank the 7 priorities regarding research and development as it relates to the 'competitiveness of the BC farming industry' The number one priotity was fish health.  I thought hell ya.... and the lowest priority is 'interaction with wild salmon'.... and that was hard to digest. mostly because this was anonymous survery with those working in the industry.


** I tried some google searches but stopped at page 4 usually. nitwit styles. 

[Novabonker]

If my posts annoy you, simply do not read them NB.

http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/we-sure-don%E2%80%99t-want-be-canoe-water-brothers

It's more like sand in my speedo or a skeeter buzzing around me. A tiny pebble in my shoe. A pimple on my , well, you know. But you amuse me more than annoy me because it's always fish farm pravda comrade.

[absolon]

excellent, thank you, some times you need to dumb it down for us halfwits..... so if they are screened for pathogens and are deemed healthy, why do they grow up and get sick? husbandry techniques? close proximity to each other?  the pacific ocean is just to virulent of an ocean to support them?

I suggested that even a halfwit could understand the risk is greater by introducing large numbers of unscreened fish than by introducing screened and quarantined eggs. I don't know you so have no idea if you are a halfwit or not and therefore must defer to your judgement on that one. I'm sure that given a little thought you could answer your own questions.

Maybe you can explain it more for me.  how does a , infecting atlantic salmon, show up in the pacific and get atlantics sick? All I have read is it 'may or or may not have been present here before'....  how did it get here with all the screening and assurance that they are healthy?  back in the early 1900's when they were put in rivers for sport fishing?

now if it was always here and because the pacific salmon have high resistance to ISAv, it must be our local pacific salmon getting the atlantics sick?  If thats the case, we can't let that happen. thats just bad business.

When was ISAv found here? I'm assuming that is the "disease that was first 'discovered' in the atlantic" you are referring to, though you aren't clear enough in what you are saying to be sure.

is the next logical step to elminate the source of the disease and just start culling wild pacifics?
i'm just trying to follow your reasoning.

That's not my reasoning. You arrived at that completely without my help.

what you tell me makes no sense. again, i'm just a halfwit.  they are tested, assured, inspected, guaranteed, stamped and stickered.  but they grow up and get sick? I don't know why, or how they would be getting sick with all these measures and fantastic systems you are telling me about. to quote steve is something "wrong?"

I'll just refer you back to paragraph one. Screening is done to prevent transmission of pathogens with the eggs. Quarantine is a part of that process. There is no guarantee that the fish will not be infected by an endemic pathogen once it is placed in the pen just as there is no guarantee you won't catch a cold or develop hepatitis even though you had neither when you were born.

also, now maybe this logic might be lost on some of the higher IQ's on these pages.  so, we dumped a bunch of atlantics up and down the coast hoping to catch them.  The salmon don't take to the rivers and begin a natural life cycle.  we were unaware of the future consequences that introducing an alien spcies would do.  so now, 100 years later your paying the consequences?  because that virus managed to stay alive here (if it didnt exist before).  Thats what your telling me.... Then it can be reasoned that IF that virus was present here before the introduction of atlantic salmon and now you have atlantics getting sick, wouldn't you want them taken out of a volatile environment?

What Atlantics are getting sick and what are they sick with?

so what types of consequences are we ignoring now by keeping atlantics in open pens in the pacific ocean?  the ocean floor is pretty much void of life under most farms.  and thats in a few short years.... you have currents flowing past these pens moving all sorts of waste products, food, feces, spent meds all over the ocean.

Instead of taking license with your words, apparently quite acceptable for you even if it's not for the farm industry, why don't you regale us with some specifics? How much "void of life" ocean floor is under the pens and how do you know it is void of life? Had a look for yourself? How much "waste products, food, feces, spent meds all over the ocean" are we talking here and specifically what is being put at risk? Can you support your hyperbole with some actual specifics?

you would think maybe chile and norway would be good examples for us.  But no, our scientists are smarter here, are rules are the strictes in the world and we have the husbandry techniques to make sure we don't ruin the ocean and our wild stocks.  I'm lookin to buy a bridge, anyone have one for sale?

No, you would think that. People more concerned with a rational analysis would compare the similarities and differences between the three environments and take the lessons that were appropriate for our situation, and wouldn't you know it, that's pretty much what happens.

I can appreciate that you have a fairly strong opinion about salmon farming and you're certainly welcome to it. I can also appreciate that, as you've specifically said yourself, you don't know much about the subject. Given those two rather contradictory points in combination with your obvious taste for an argument, I can only surmise that it would be a fairly substantial waste of time to try and address your concerns. Perhaps someone else might be interested.

[banx]

I suggested that even a halfwit could understand the risk is greater by introducing large numbers of unscreened fish than by introducing screened and quarantined eggs. I don't know you so have no idea if you are a halfwit or not and therefore must defer to your judgement on that one. I'm sure that given a little thought you could answer your own questions.

When was ISAv found here? I'm assuming that is the "disease that was first 'discovered' in the atlantic" you are referring to, though you aren't clear enough in what you are saying to be sure.


That's not my reasoning. You arrived at that completely without my help.

I'll just refer you back to paragraph one. Screening is done to prevent transmission of pathogens with the eggs. Quarantine is a part of that process. There is no guarantee that the fish will not be infected by an endemic pathogen once it is placed in the pen just as there is no guarantee you won't catch a cold or develop hepatitis even though you had neither when you were born.



What Atlantics are getting sick and what are they sick with?

Instead of taking license with your words, apparently quite acceptable for you even if it's not for the farm industry, why don't you regale us with some specifics? How much "void of life" ocean floor is under the pens and how do you know it is void of life? Had a look for yourself? How much "waste products, food, feces, spent meds all over the ocean" are we talking here and specifically what is being put at risk? Can you support your hyperbole with some actual specifics?

No, you would think that. People more concerned with a rational analysis would compare the similarities and differences between the three environments and take the lessons that were appropriate for our situation, and wouldn't you know it, that's pretty much what happens.

I can appreciate that you have a fairly strong opinion about salmon farming and you're certainly welcome to it. I can also appreciate that, as you've specifically said yourself, you don't know much about the subject. Given those two rather contradictory points in combination with your obvious taste for an argument, I can only surmise that it would be a fairly substantial waste of time to try and address your concerns. Perhaps someone else might be interested.

absolon, I don't think I'm smart enough to answer my own questions. maybe you and steve are the only ones who are actually able to answer your own questions.

well heres ISAv here

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/virus-present-in-bc-salmon-for-decades-inquiry-told/article4247764/

"Infectious salmon anemia, a virus that has triggered devastating disease outbreaks in stocks of farmed Atlantic salmon around the world, appears to have been in British Columbia wild salmon for at least 25 years, the Cohen commission of inquiry has heard."

Things that get atlantics sick: sea lice, ISAv, kudoa, Infectious Hematopoietic Necrosis, Furunculosis, Bacterial Kidney Disease.

How much food, meds and waste is dumped into the ocean? 
well thats a great question.... and all we really know is

"Despite the low relative usage of antibiotics in aquaculture compared to other food production systems their use remains an issue of concern as aquaculture is often practiced in relatively pristine environments and the exact quantities applied directly to water is not available in some jurisdictions. Available data show that large quantities of antibiotics have been applied in Chile over a generally small geographic area. In Canada the quantity of antibiotics prescribed per metric ton of production is also high compared to Norway or Scotland. Use of large quantities may indicate disease problems related to husbandry or to resistance buildup in fish. It has also been suggested that this use of large volumes of antibiotics can be explained by excessive and prophylactic use"   

CHEMICAL USE IN SALMON AQUACULTURE: A REVIEW OF CURRENT PRACTICES AND POSSIBLE ENVIRONMENTAL EFFECTS
Les Burridge1, Judith Weis2, Felipe Cabello3 and Jaime Pizarro4

also "Antibiotic treatment in aquaculture is achieved by medicated baths and medicated food. In both cases, the likelihood exists for antibiotics to pass into the environment, affecting wildlife, remaining in the environment for extended periods of time and exerting their antibiotic effects. Concerns regarding the use of large amounts of antibiotics in aquaculture are multiple. They include selection of antibiotic-resistant bacteria in piscine normal flora and pathogens as well as
2
effects due to the persistence of antibiotics and antibiotic residues in sediments and water column. These persistent antibiotics select for antibiotic-resistant free-living bacteria thereby altering the composition of normal marine and freshwater bacterial flora. Evidence suggests that these antibiotic-resistant organisms in the marine environment will, in turn, pass their antibiotic resistance genes to other bacteria including human and animal pathogens. Because of their toxicity to microorganisms, antibiotics may also affect the composition of the phytoplankton community, the zooplankton community and even the diversity of populations of larger animals.

In this manner, potential alterations of the diversity of the marine microbiota produced by antibiotics may alter the homeostasis of the marine environment and affect complex forms of life including fish, shellfish, marine mammals, and human beings. Use of large quantities of antibiotics in aquaculture thus has the potential to be detrimental to fish health, to the environment and wildlife, and to human health. For all these reasons, excessive antibiotic use in aquaculture should be of high concern to the aquaculture industry and its regulators, to public officials dealing with human and veterinary health and with the preservation of the environment, and to non-governmental organizations dealing with these issues."

and thats ok with you? 

This table could be referenced I believe.

"The following products are registered for use as antibiotics in Canada:

 Oxytetracycline, trimethoprim80%/sulphadiazine20%, sulfadimethoxine80%/ormetoprim20%, florfenicol. Table 2.3 shows the quantities of antibiotic actually applied in Canada (2003) and British Columbia (BC) from 2004 through 2006. While BC produces the majority of Atlantic salmon grown in Canada, there is a significant salmon aquaculture industry on Canada’s east coast. Table 2.3. Total antibiotic use in Canadaa or for British Columbia onlyb

                    U2003Ua            U2004Ub    U2005Ub     U2006Ub    
Total antibiotics    30,343 Kg*    18,530 Kg    12,103 Kg     7,956 Kg    


and what atlantics are getting sick? well thats the easiest question you've asked.
http://forargyll.com/2013/10/norway-orders-killing-of-2-million-farm-salmon-with-sea-lice-to-protect-wild-salmon/

that was oct 10th. last week.  and I am pretty sure I don't have to link every mass killing because someone here has already posted it. And since you know everything there is to know about aquaculture I am sure your aware of the 'cullings' in chile, our east coast and our coast. Because the fish got sick.


our coast....... “The fish were 400 grams and there were about 400 tonnes. Financial losses are expected to be in the millions,” said Mainstream spokeswoman Laurie Jensen.

Grieg has destroyed about 316,000 fish, said Grieg managing director Stewart Hawthorn. Financial losses have not yet been evaluated." http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Virus+confirmed+salmon+farms+cull+fish/7074308/story.html

you can also google image search 'ocean floor under salmon farms'  pretty great scenery. and no I haven't put on scuba gear and swam under a farm. I'm only basing my judgement on other peoples personal views and photos.  People that generally have nothing to gain.  Maybe a farmer has a gopro camera and can take some nice pics for us.

some fellow named Absolon said "there is no guarantee that the fish will not be infected by an endemic pathogen once it is placed in the pen"  regardless of the measures in place.  Also and this is my point, which you and uncle stevey fail to recognize. Is that with all the bells and whistles you don't know why fish get sick. 

so don't put them in a pen in the OCEAN to raise them, sell em as food and tell me they are delicious.
you guys are trying to make a case to support rape basically.  cause thats my whole view on this. That regardless of everything your telling me that is used to 'control' the process, it isn't working.

[shuswapsteve]

"I asked you who these “hired companies” are and have not received an answer"

Get a life, you know a sure as slice that one group is EWOS types who produce the feed for them dirty fish. Man talk about tossing red herring around. Fibfarmerbob quote right from the other ones.

They make fish food.  Using your logic (and banx's flawed logic) Save-On-Foods is a hired company which is a paid lobby group for the beef industry.  Thanks for the comedy.

[shuswapsteve]

steve. I just gave you a site that was a total public relations company. and quoted them.... those are all public relation fronts.
"working to protect wild salmon"  which is hilarious. 

of course i'm going to use and manipulate the language to get my point across. its called articulation. having a vocabulary.  You do it with your eloquent posts that probably keep 98% of the people from saying anything because they don't want to be made foolish.

steve.... I'm not knocking the science. I've told you that.  It is tough to digest when it's paid for by a special interest.  regardless of which side of the fence they sit on.  like the irony of "truth in advertising"  and I will repeat I'm not a morton fan or supporter, I don't know why you keep talking about her when you reply to me. 

as for pathogens they would have been introduced when farming started.... You said that a salmon can suffer from many pathogens and not suffer from a disease.  So you agreed with me initially, then you tell me it doesn't happen?   so your saying nothing was introduced ever when farming took place?  that the ilnesses atlantic salmon suffer all came from pacific salmon? I will gladly read any info you can point me to regarding  the introduction of atlantics here in the pacific. Especially if it's related to early diseases and viruses.

is that why there are such stringent regulations in place? "some of the strictest in the world" as you said.

steve they use drugs, these drugs flow into the open oceans which you have no idea what they do to other animals. what more needs to be clarified? its drugs in the ocean.  thats the bottom line. you can quote husbandry techniques and say its vet prescribed.  but guess what, its the open ocean. is that not correct?  tell me that open net pens are not in the ocean. please tell me.

your paragrpah beginning with "third" makes my point for me, yet again.... thanks. This may be just a wild assumption, as i'm no scientist or fish farmer.  But my understanding is that when animals, fish in this case are in close proximity to each other they get sick at a much higher rate than they would in the wild or if they had more 'space'.   is that wrong also?

so the spin regarding sea lice was true.  yet you expect to have complete confidence in the farms public relations department now.  one great mind named shuswapsteve once told me something brilliant "fool me once shame on me fool me twice......."

steve, if the fish are getting sick and the food they eat has medicine in it, they are doing something wrong.  if my daughter is getting sick because of the environment I put her in. Its my fault and it means i'm doing something wrong.

you have told me i'm wrong about 5 times now, and you've been out to lunch on them. so much so that I would love to join you. I would even buy. 

I also agree that there are many other things that are effecting wild salmon stocks.  some we can control and some we can't.  Open pen farming is one we can.  so expect people, the misinformed, the radical, the hippie, the ones with too much time on their hands, the special interest groups, and the regular ol tax payer to question the practices and voice their concerns.

who wants fish crammed together in a pen in one of the most beautiful parts of the world defecating up a storm?   apparantly you and the farmers.

I have never in my life met anyone in person who supports open pen farming. not a soul. and i'm sure the people that have, can count their supporters on one hand.

I guess most citizens of this beautiful province are just as you like to put it "wrong".

You are one very confused person right now.  I never said that pathogens cannot lead to disease.  As for me “saying that nothing was introduced ever when farming took place here” I provided you a very detailed response.  I am not going to waste my time saying it again.  Secondly, what pathogens are you talking about it?  What has been introduced?  Absolon is also trying to get an answer from you on this, but like a good “public relations company” you are doing your best to avoid questions.  If you are talking about IHNv it is an endemic virus that has been around our waters long before fish farming.  There is a very long thread on this site already regarding IHN so go search for that if you want more details.  Pacific Salmon adults are largely immune IHN, but can carry the virus – IHNv.  They then can pass this virus onto Atlantic Salmon which have no resistance to IHN.  If you are talking about ISAv please state where it has been found here.  If Atlantic Salmon and Pacific Salmon here are getting sick from ISA please where.

your paragrpah beginning with "third" makes my point for me, yet again.... thanks. This may be just a wild assumption, as i'm no scientist or fish farmer.  But my understanding is that when animals, fish in this case are in close proximity to each other they get sick at a much higher rate than they would in the wild or if they had more 'space'.   is that wrong also?

Made your point…lol?  You sure like to pat yourself on the back for not understanding the topic.  Obviously you forgot the high survival rate of Atlantic Salmon on BC fish farms.  If you are talking about IHN outbreaks on BC fish farms do you know the frequency of occurrences?  The fact is that outbreaks are not very frequent (the last major one was 2003 I believe).  You are also forgetting that farmed fish here are vaccinated (not medication) which contributes to a high survival rate.  I never said that farmed fish will never get sick, but the industry here keeps that mortality rate very low and it is not all because of drugs.  Antibiotics are not used in high quantities.  If you are fearful of drugs in the ocean then you should be more concerned about what is being treated by municipal wastewater systems.  Where are all these sick Atlantics that are constantly getting sick on BC fish farms to the point where it is a chronic problem?  Again, visit a fish farm or a fish hatchery and get informed.
 

Maybe you can explain it more for me.  how does a disease that was first 'discovered' in the atlantic, infecting atlantic salmon, show up in the pacific and get atlantics sick? All I have read is it 'may or or may not have been present here before'....  how did it get here with all the screening and assurance that they are healthy?  back in the early 1900's when they were put in rivers for sport fishing?
now if it was always here and because the pacific salmon have high resistance to ISAv, it must be our local pacific salmon getting the atlantics sick?  If thats the case, we can't let that happen. thats just bad business.

Explain it to you more…lol?  How did it get here with all the screening, you ask?  Maybe read the Cohen Final Report for starters.  Apparently you have been reading the technical reports so I should not have to prompt you.  Maybe read what Dr. Miller says about her findings about the ISAv-like sequences she found; whether it is known or not to cause disease.  Maybe read what Justice Cohen concluded about the presence of ISAv and ISA in our waters?  Did you notice the date of the G&M article and when the Cohen Report was released?  I provided you a page from the report to start from unless Cohen is a “public relations company” that can’t be trusted….lol.  Of course I already told you that if ISA were on BC fish farms what the result could be.

Things that get atlantics sick: sea lice, ISAv, kudoa, Infectious Hematopoietic Necrosis, Furunculosis, Bacterial Kidney Disease.

Do you know what Kudoa is?  Obviously not or you would not have made such a grand conclusion; however, you likely already patted yourself on the back for that one.  The fact is that it does not get Atlantics sick.  Instead it impacts the quality of the flesh by softening it.  It is usually not noticed until the fish is sold.  Kudoa is also found in wild fish on our coast and other coastal areas.  I can tell you about some other endemic parasites that wild Pacific Salmon have that will twist your stomach.

some fellow named Absolon said "there is no guarantee that the fish will not be infected by an endemic pathogen once it is placed in the pen"  regardless of the measures in place.  Also and this is my point, which you and uncle stevey fail to recognize. Is that with all the bells and whistles you don't know why fish get sick.

We don't know why Atlantic Salmon that get sick with IHN??  I just told you.  In fact there is huge thread on this already on this site.  You are indeed a very confused person.

[troutbreath]

They make fish food.  Using your logic (and banx's flawed logic) Save-On-Foods is a hired company which is a paid lobby group for the beef industry.  Thanks for the comedy.

Blinders on Shteve. Fish pharmaceutical companies and so called fish farm vets who proscribe tasty things like slice are big players in pushing the dirty fish onto the plate. Thanks for the blind comic reply but take them off once in a while. it's always darkest under the netpen.

[banx]

I included kudoa as it was asked "what gets atlantics sick" so I listed them off.... was it wrong to include it? it appears it does.  I am well aware of some of the things that effect our native pacific salmon and have actually emailed several pictures to DFO over the years. particularly the incredible increase in the amount of 'zitted' coho I have been catching.

confused, no, concerned yes.

I will begin reading the other parts of the cohen report and see what kind of ignorant questions I can muster for you.  I know that after I finish reading the rest of the recommendations your fingers will be getting a stretch on the ol keyboard. 

http://deptwildsalmon.org/results/wild/ public reations for the antifarm crowd, but it shows dr.millers discoveries

and you guys: ""Farm-raised Atlantic salmon, unlike their Pacific cousins, are susceptible to ISA, so this is a concern for our operations, but much less likely to be an issue for the different Pacific species," said Stewart Hawthorn, Managing Director for Grieg Seafood. "If these results are valid, this could be a threat to our business and the communities that rely on our productive industry."

The results were reportedly found in juvenile Sockeye smolts in Rivers Inlet - an area north of most salmon farms. These fish would not have passed aquaculture operations, but our farmers remain concerned about what this means, and how the disease, which is not native to British Columbia, may have been introduced.

http://www.salmonfarmers.org/suspect-findings-isa-concern-bcs-salmon-farmers

so you guys don't know where it came from, and its carried by pacific salmon... thats the information I'm reading.


and Dr.Miller: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/virus-present-in-bc-salmon-for-decades-inquiry-told/article4247764/

Infectious salmon anemia, a virus that has triggered devastating disease outbreaks in stocks of farmed Atlantic salmon around the world, appears to have been in British Columbia wild salmon for at least 25 years, the Cohen commission of inquiry has heard.

The ISA virus – or a new variation of it – has been found repeatedly in samples of wild sockeye and pink salmon, as well as in samples of farmed chinook taken from one West Coast aquaculture operati

No lethal virus in Pacific salmon, CFIA says
That revelatory evidence was given on Thursday, by Kristi Miller, head of molecular genetics at the federal Pacific Biological Station in Nanaimo.

“I clearly believe that there is a virus here that is very similar to the ISA virus in Europe … [but]we have not established that it causes disease,” said Dr. Miller.

She was one of four experts on ISA called to testify about a recent series of conflicting test results that have raised questions about whether the virus is present on the West Coast or not.

In October, sockeye salmon collected by Simon Fraser University researchers were tested at an East Coast lab and several samples were found positive for ISA. But follow-up testing by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency failed to replicate the results. As other labs got into the picture, some got positive results, while others didn’t.

Intrigued by the SFU discovery, Dr. Miller said she launched her own research effort and has concluded that the ISA virus, or something much like it, is present in both wild and farmed salmon in B.C.

Fred Kibenge, chair of the department of pathology and microbiology at the University of Prince Edward Island, which did the SFU testing, agreed with Dr. Miller’s assessment.

“In my view … I think there’s evidence there are ISAV sequences in fish samples from B.C.,” Dr. Kibenge said. “I think the result is credible. Now, whether it’s ISA or ISA-virus-like, that requires some work.”

Dr. Miller said her tests found a virus that is 95-per-cent similar to the European strain of ISA, which has infected farmed Atlantic salmon in Norway, Scotland, Atlantic Canada and Chile.

She said when her tests detected ISA in fish collected this year, she went back into the laboratory’s storage lockers and pulled out samples of fish from as far back as 1986 – and found ISA there too, showing the virus has been present at least 25 years.

Dr. Miller said the ISA virus has now been confirmed in numerous wild fish, and in chinook samples provided by Creative Salmon, a fish farm on Vancouver Island.

Dr. Miller said Creative was the only fish farm that co-operated with her research efforts, and she had not been able to get samples from other farms in B.C.

“They did not want their samples to be tested,” she said of the farms, which mostly raise Atlantic salmon.

The ISA disease can be lethal to Atlantic salmon, but lab tests suggest it does not kill Pacific salmon.

However, a report by Brad Davis, a postdoctoral fellow working with Dr. Miller, indicates that fish with the virus react in a way that “suggests that the virus is causing enough damage to elicit a strong response in the salmon. … Therefore, we cannot at this point assume that this virus does not cause disease in these fish.”


The panel members all agreed that the conflicting results between labs could be the result of different techniques.

Ms. Gagné said the ISA virus was first detected on the East Coast in 1990, and research showed it was a different strain from the European virus.

“It could be we are really looking at another [third kind of]ISA,” she said.

My confused mind tells me that if the environment your putting farmed salmon in, i.e crazy wild salmon carrying ISA swimming near by, that you would want to remove them from the environment. does that make sense?  or is that confusing.

Steve you said  "Antibiotics are not used in high quantities."  That may be true, and this could all be relative.  But when your measuring production in tonnes and the unit of measurement describing 'antibiotics' is in kilograms. it seems very high....  65,000+kgs from 2002 to 2006. dumped into our BC waters. thats a lot of drugs.

and your proud of the fact that you havent had a mass culling in a few years now. awesome. thats like fox news saying america is doing something right because they haven't had a school shooting in a year.

this is what you guys sound like now.



and this is where I think you guys will be in a few more years.... hopefully.

[dnibbles]

and your proud of the fact that you havent had a mass culling in a few years now. awesome. thats like fox news saying america is doing something right because they haven't had a school shooting in a year.

this is what you guys sound like now.



and this is where I think you guys will be in a few more years.... hopefully.

Hehehe, good stuff, I like this guy 

[shuswapsteve]

I included kudoa as it was asked "what gets atlantics sick" so I listed them off.... was it wrong to include it? it appears it does.  I am well aware of some of the things that effect our native pacific salmon and have actually emailed several pictures to DFO over the years. particularly the incredible increase in the amount of 'zitted' coho I have been catching.

Hmmm....so you decided to list them off without being sure what they all were.  Then you go on to reassure me that you know what you are talking about.  Sounds a little like what Morton tries to do.  Are you sure you don't operate your own "public relations" site?  Interestingly, I see that the picture you have in your last post says, "Know Your Facts".  You may want to take that advice.

I will begin reading the other parts of the cohen report and see what kind of ignorant questions I can muster for you.  I know that after I finish reading the rest of the recommendations your fingers will be getting a stretch on the ol keyboard.

I already brought up Dr. Miller's retroactive work already in this thread, so what you found is not new news.  However, I am glad you took more of an interest in looking at some of the findings.  One thing that you have to remember is that Cohen had more than just a few experts provide testimony on ISA.  For instance, Dr. Nylund (a leading authority on ISA) also provided testimony also.  The report brings in the opinions of all these experts with Cohen tasked with the job of weighing the evidence from all sides.  You say, "You guys don't know where it came from".....well actually no one really knows were these ISA-like sequences came from.  That is why Dr. Miller adds that more work on it needs to be done.  What is known is that if ISA was here we would see it on the fish farms as ISA is lethal to Atlantic Salmon.  What we do know is that Pacific Salmon have been found to be largely immune to ISA.  To date, ISAv or ISA has not be found on BC fish farms.  This evidence was provided to the commission.

As for Dr. Miller's discovery of the ISA virus in Chinook samples provided by Creative Salmon there is more to that story than what you have portrayed.  First, the Dr. Miller's study of the ISA virus in those fish also found that the prevalence of that virus was the same in healthy fish as it was in sick fish.  Second, the results from that study were linked to a data from a licenced veterinarian sampled the fish and a board certified veterinary pathologist that examine sections of organs under a microscope.  This way it was obvious to see that the sick fish were sick and the healthy fish were healthy.  This suggests that whatever Dr. Miller was finding was not the cause of disease in those Chinook Salmon.

As for the report by Brad Davis, it should be noted that this conclusion was based ignoring or changing data, according to Dr. Gary Marty (Provincial Fish Health Veterinarian).

https://www.professionalbiology.com/sites/default/files/bionews/BioNews22-1-electronic.pdf

(Note: Not from those dreaded “public relation” sites operated by the BC fish farm industry or anti-fish farm activists)

My confused mind tells me that if the environment your putting farmed salmon in, i.e crazy wild salmon carrying ISA swimming near by, that you would want to remove them from the environment. does that make sense?  or is that confusing.

Well, your confused mind should realize that morts on fish farms are tested for exotic and endemic diseases.  The province operated a surveillance program, prior to feds taking over, that tested over 4,700 farmed salmon in BC.  These results were reported annually by the province when they were in charge of this.  Recently dead fish are targeted for disease sampling because it increases the likelihood of finding disease instead of randomly sampling live fish where most would be healthy.  Samples are collected for bacteriology, histopathology and molecular diagnostics/virology.  To date, there has been no confirmed case of ISA on BC fish farms.  So, when you say that we don't know why these fish get sick that is actually false.

http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/

(Note: Not taken from those dreaded "public relations" sites you don't like)

Steve you said  "Antibiotics are not used in high quantities."  That may be true, and this could all be relative.  But when your measuring production in tonnes and the unit of measurement describing 'antibiotics' is in kilograms. it seems very high....  65,000+kgs from 2002 to 2006. dumped into our BC waters. thats a lot of drugs.

Are assuming that the "drugs" being used have not been studied and tested for use in Canada?  I am interested in hearing the impact you are seeing here instead of "I think this is going to happen".

and your proud of the fact that you havent had a mass culling in a few years now. awesome. thats like fox news saying america is doing something right because they haven't had a school shooting in a year.

Not a question of being "proud".  Just stating a fact that you overlooked while you were implying that sickness on BC salmon farms was a big problem.

steve, if the fish are getting sick and the food they eat has medicine in it, they are doing something wrong.  if my daughter is getting sick because of the environment I put her in. Its my fault and it means i'm doing something wrong.

Seeing as though you agree that there are similarities with land based agriculture (i.e. beef) you should realize that farmers and ranchers, who use the "environment" also, do not just sit around and watch what their crops or cattle suffer without taking any action to remedy the situation.  Those remedies can be chemical treatments, procedural changes (i.e. not raising chickens in close proximity to pigs) or actions which may negatively impact surrounding fish and wildlife.  I am pretty sure that you are a consumer of those products.  Are you doing something wrong or are they doing something wrong?  Has your daughter ever been immunized or taken medication for an illness like a cold or the flu?  Is the doctor doing something wrong by providing a medicine prescription or should you just pull your daughter out of public school because that could be a likely source of future sickness.  Does she go back to school if it is possible that others there can be sick (now or sometime in the future) or do you just provide home schooling for the rest of her life?.

this is what you guys sound like now.

I agree with nibbles that is kind of humorous, but as I indicated earlier you might want to brush up on the facts that are out there now instead of manufacturing them (sort of like what Morton does).

[shuswapsteve]

Blinders on Shteve. Fish pharmaceutical companies and so called fish farm vets who proscribe tasty things like slice are big players in pushing the dirty fish onto the plate. Thanks for the blind comic reply but take them off once in a while. it's always darkest under the netpen.

People such as yourself are small players in the realm of factual information, but mighty large in the arena of delusion.

[Novabonker]

People such as yourself are small players in the realm of factual information, but mighty large in the arena of delusion.

Fur sumwon wuth a grate beeg edukashun ids reel nyce thet a gooroo lyke ewe kin com downn fromm thet ther mountin to hep us liddle peeple innerstand bedder. Weer ill jest ignernt rednex wuth know ideer wat weere tawkin' aboot. Id's gud too no ewe er th unly won thet nos all th facs end ar the beeall an enzall fer infoo un th fush ferms. Effter ell, yur a BEEG playyer en I figger id's nyce thet ewe kin hobb nobb wuth us liddle fooks. Ded eye menshun weere ell jest ignernt rednex?

Thenk Ewe Steeve! Ell Hale Steeve!

Speaking of delusional.....

[banx]

steve, I wasn't going to reply until I finished reading the cohen report... I still have 2/3rds or so to go...

like I said about kudoa, you asked what gets them sick. so i listed it. I read what it is, and in fact it effects atlantic salmon all over this planet. 

That being said. My daughter gets sick she stays home. an extra day too.... so she doesn't go to school and get other kids sick....  Up north the classes are smaller so they aren't packed in like atlantic salmon in a net pen. 

My daughter will not get a flu shot.  She doesn't get meds for a cold either, becuase meds don't kill the cold virus, they just mask the symptoms.  so it's tea and honey and a movie on the couch.
when she was a baby she got immunized.  Will probably get the 'mandatory' shots in grade 9 when she gets there.

I am a consumer of beef and chicken (also moose and pacific salmon).  However, its antibiotic free and grass fed.  I grew up up north and my parents being immigrants would buy half cows and shoot moose.  They also traded wine for fish.  I rarely eat fast food... and I rarely eat pork. bacons pretty hard to ignore though.
I put my wallet where my mouth is man.  Cows aren't supposed to eat corn and fish aren't supposed to eat pellets.

I also haven't manufactured any facts....... and If ISA was not found on any farms, why would Dr.Miller say she wasn't able to attain any samples?  were some provided after the report was commissioned? 

and Steve, who the bleep cares if the 'drugs' were tested and safe to use in canada.  We have problems already from domestic water treatment plants and people dumping their own prescriptions down the toilet.

65,000+ kgs of drugs in 4 years dumped into the water.  the 'average'  dump truck holds 13 tons. and 72 tons or so was dumped into the ocean.... so nearly 6 full dump truck loads.

in 4 years.....  and your telling me I shouldn't be worried about what-ifs.