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Author Topic: Get your facts straight?  (Read 1688081 times)

Easywater

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1890 on: December 04, 2015, 02:55:56 PM »

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Fisherbob

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1891 on: December 04, 2015, 03:19:43 PM »

One of the most damning articles against fish farms that I have seen.
I have to agree with you. Classic example of how to get misinformed people to hit that donate button. :)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 03:23:42 PM by Fisherbob »
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ClayoquotKid

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1892 on: December 04, 2015, 03:24:08 PM »

This is worth watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL9Qf3NSxmg&feature=youtu.be
Dr. Richard Beamish talks about "What we know, what we don't know, and what we need to know."
He even gets a Feynman quote in there...
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Dave

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1893 on: December 04, 2015, 06:50:59 PM »

That was a magnificent first "post of importance", CK ;)  I suspect many won't put in the time to watch this in it's entirety and that's a shame because Beamish is a brilliant scientist; arrogant as hell but very, very few had the balls to debate him. His comments on the future of aquaculture in BC begin around the 50th minute.
I had some brief correspondence with this guy; as mentioned in the lecture he had a passion for lamprey's and their relationship with salmon.  I worked in the Fraser Canyon sampling sockeye and often encountered upstream migrating lampreys ... I reported my observations to him and all of a sudden I was on a first name basis with a future Order of Canada recipient.  Needless to say a confidence booster for a lowly technician :)
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banx

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1894 on: December 04, 2015, 09:01:27 PM »

that was good, after that into i expected at least a little lazer light show, maybe some fog.... he needed a glass of water though, poor guy.... what i got from it was the science is solid and there's lots we don't know.

ocean acidification is legit. also, the question at the end was good and the answer just as good.

 
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chris gadsden

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chris gadsden

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1896 on: December 04, 2015, 09:48:30 PM »

That was a magnificent first "post of importance", CK ;)  I suspect many won't put in the time to watch this in it's entirety and that's a shame because Beamish is a brilliant scientist; arrogant as hell but very, very few had the balls to debate him. His comments on the future of aquaculture in BC begin around the 50th minute.
I had some brief correspondence with this guy; as mentioned in the lecture he had a passion for lamprey's and their relationship with salmon.  I worked in the Fraser Canyon sampling sockeye and often encountered upstream migrating lampreys ... I reported my observations to him and all of a sudden I was on a first name basis with a future Order of Canada recipient.  Needless to say a confidence booster for a lowly technician :)
I would not call you a lowly technican as would those that read your posts regarding FF. ;D

Fisherbob

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« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 10:22:00 AM by Fisherbob »
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Fisherbob

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« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 03:19:49 PM by Fisherbob »
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chris gadsden

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1899 on: December 06, 2015, 07:17:44 PM »

Found this old post interesting that was posted by Ian and Dave.

Quote from: Dave on June 21, 2014, 03:00:39 PM

    "Glad to see you have an open mind Ian. What damage have you seen done to sensitive areas that is directly related to salmon farms?"


"Near a fish farm outside the mouth of the Mahatta River, a well known summer steelhead river, it is now a dead zone when previously it was teaming with life. And, after fishing the river several times I did not see anywhere close to the numbers of steelhead I have seen in the past.

Talking with a fisheries officer who did studies before and after a fish farm went into operation near Nootka Island, he told me there were drastic changes. Before the fish farm, a simple beach seine would show all 6 species of salmonids, as well as bottom fish of many species. There were even little seahorses and countless sea perch and sculpins. The area was very rich in sea life of all sorts. A year after the fish farm went into operation the area was almost a complete dead zone and only a few fish species were captured in several beach seines in the exact same location.

My only conclusion, from a layman's long term study, is if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, then chances are that it is a duck."

aquapaloosa

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1900 on: December 06, 2015, 07:51:09 PM »

The guy lost me at sea horse. If we have sea horses on this coast I have yet to see one.  I think the guy is stretching the truth a lot.
6 species of salmon? umm.... How about 5. I,m not even sure there are any pinks out of Nootka.   
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 08:22:06 PM by aquapaloosa »
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Chicken farm, pig farm, cow farm, fish farm.

salmonrook

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1901 on: December 06, 2015, 09:41:12 PM »

So tell me Chris, why are those american foundations happy to fund anti salmon farm propaganda in Canada but not in the US? If they cared about wild salmon so much they would be funding the same crap against the salmon farmers in their own country. Just a marketing tactic on a sinking ship. The articles are sounding sillier each time. :)
Is it possible that we are the precursor to what will happen in the US,puget sound maybe.
Possibly they are watching us to see what is happening and want to stop before it spreads south,just like a large tide of sea lice and effluent .
 Besides that you are suggesting a conspiracy,not sure what it could be and besides why  would we care as long as we receive support,financial or in belief.
 We can see the damage and so can they, we want to stop it or minimize damage to our environment ,how can you not be behind sustainability for everyones future ?
 Why should we be steamrolled by these few big multinationals for there financial gain at the expense of our environment., because we are being affable Canadians ?
 
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1902 on: December 06, 2015, 11:04:19 PM »

Is it possible that we are the precursor to what will happen in the US,puget sound maybe.
Possibly they are watching us to see what is happening and want to stop before it spreads south,just like a large tide of sea lice and effluent .
 Besides that you are suggesting a conspiracy,not sure what it could be and besides why  would we care as long as we receive support,financial or in belief.
 We can see the damage and so can they, we want to stop it or minimize damage to our environment ,how can you not be behind sustainability for everyones future ?
 Why should we be steamrolled by these few big multinationals for there financial gain at the expense of our environment., because we are being affable Canadians ?

When you look at the timeline when Atlantic Salmon were introduced to the Pacific Northwest, why would BC necessarily be thought of a precursor to what will happen in the US, specifically the Puget Sound.  Look at the facts.  In 1972, the first Atlantic Salmon farm on the Pacific Coast was established in Puget Sound.  Look at the history of Atlantic Salmon introductions.  In 1904, Atlantic Salmon was first brought to Washington State to start an ocean sport fishery.  Besides that, explain to me how net pen aquaculture of Atlantic Salmon in the Puget Sound area is that different in order for BC to be considered a “precursor”?  Possibly watching for what – to see if a large tide of sea lice and effluent is going to head south?  So open net pen fish farms in Puget Sound do not have sea lice or effluent and this is basically a made-in-BC thing that threatens to move south like some large tide?

It’s kind of ironic hearing a fish farm critic accuse someone else on the opposite side of the debate for suggesting a conspiracy.  Farm critics are full of some bizarre theories – like large tides of sea lice and effluent spreading south from BC.

Why would we care as long as long as we receive support, financial or in belief??  That statement suggests to me that you are willing to turn a blind eye to other similar operations south of the border (and any hypocrisy) so that money and verbal support continues to flow into BC from these foundations.  As long as farm critics leading the struggle here are getting their money that’s all that matters (Yep..I said that…lol).  Sort of the “ends justifies the means.”  Nice.

So, “we” can see this damage and so can they (I guess you are talking about these US foundations) and “we” want to stop it or minimize the damage to our environment, but somehow farmed Atlantic Salmon in open net pens in Puget Sound or even ranched salmon in Alaska should not raise any concern at this time?  What is this damage we and even they are seeing?  If they can see this happening then why wouldn’t they take similar action south of the border unless you are attempting to tell me that this "damage" south of the border doesn’t exist yet – only in BC?  Oh, that’s right, the tide of sea lice and effluent hasn’t quite happened yet, but it’s probably going to happen anytime soon.
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salmonrook

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1903 on: December 07, 2015, 01:08:07 AM »

When you look at the timeline when Atlantic Salmon were introduced to the Pacific Northwest, why would BC necessarily be thought of a precursor to what will happen in the US, specifically the Puget Sound.  Look at the facts.  In 1972, the first Atlantic Salmon farm on the Pacific Coast was established in Puget Sound.  Look at the history of Atlantic Salmon introductions.  In 1904, Atlantic Salmon was first brought to Washington State to start an ocean sport fishery.  Besides that, explain to me how net pen aquaculture of Atlantic Salmon in the Puget Sound area is that different in order for BC to be considered a “precursor”?  Possibly watching for what – to see if a large tide of sea lice and effluent is going to head south?  So open net pen fish farms in Puget Sound do not have sea lice or effluent and this is basically a made-in-BC thing that threatens to move south like some large tide?

It’s kind of ironic hearing a fish farm critic accuse someone else on the opposite side of the debate for suggesting a conspiracy.  Farm critics are full of some bizarre theories – like large tides of sea lice and effluent spreading south from BC.

Why would we care as long as long as we receive support, financial or in belief??  That statement suggests to me that you are willing to turn a blind eye to other similar operations south of the border (and any hypocrisy) so that money and verbal support continues to flow into BC from these foundations.  As long as farm critics leading the struggle here are getting their money that’s all that matters (Yep..I said that…lol).  Sort of the “ends justifies the means.”  Nice.

So, “we” can see this damage and so can they (I guess you are talking about these US foundations) and “we” want to stop it or minimize the damage to our environment, but somehow farmed Atlantic Salmon in open net pens in Puget Sound or even ranched salmon in Alaska should not raise any concern at this time?  What is this damage we and even they are seeing?  If they can see this happening then why wouldn’t they take similar action south of the border unless you are attempting to tell me that this "damage" south of the border doesn’t exist yet – only in BC?  Oh, that’s right, the tide of sea lice and effluent hasn’t quite happened yet, but it’s probably going to happen anytime soon.
BC would be considered a precursor based on number of farms not timeline, currently Puget sound has 8 open net pen farms vs BC's 130.
  Based on this  Puget Sound could look to BC to see how BC's industry evolves,much like we look to Norway and Chile with concern about the state of their Farm industry
 The term sea lice and effluent was a metaphoric term, not to be taken literally .
 Funding from elsewhere with people holding similar beliefs in  protecting the environment,why would  anyone turn their backs on support.Their  is no conspiracy here,its true that we export farmed salmon to the US, which would be the biggest customer .The foundations spoken of simply have the same beliefs  in  environmental causes.To suggest that they are in some way linked to a lobby for more US farmed fish is a stretch.
  The damage south of the border does exist based on the virus outbreak in 2012.
     "In 2012, there was an outbreak of infectious hemotopoietic necrosis virus, or IHNV, in three of the farms – the Orchard Rocks, Fort Ward and Clam Bay facilities" all in Puget Sound."While the virus likely arose from wild salmon, the high densities in the net pens artificially elevated the outbreak. "
 The problems do exist down south, yet they are on a smaller scale, because they have a smaller operations.
   http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/nov/04/group-sues-to-stop-commercial-salmon-farms-in-puge/
 We have larger operations and larger problems in BC .
For now I will focus on BC cause that's where I live, and any support I get from people down south will be appreciated.
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ClayoquotKid

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1904 on: December 07, 2015, 09:42:29 AM »

That was a magnificent first "post of importance", CK ;)  I suspect many won't put in the time to watch this in it's entirety and that's a shame because Beamish is a brilliant scientist; arrogant as hell but very, very few had the balls to debate him. His comments on the future of aquaculture in BC begin around the 50th minute.
I had some brief correspondence with this guy; as mentioned in the lecture he had a passion for lamprey's and their relationship with salmon.  I worked in the Fraser Canyon sampling sockeye and often encountered upstream migrating lampreys ... I reported my observations to him and all of a sudden I was on a first name basis with a future Order of Canada recipient.  Needless to say a confidence booster for a lowly technician :)

Thanks Dave, I figured it was worthy - especially considering (and I'm 99% sure here) that it was Morton who at around 1:15 attempted to defend her and Krkosek's paper about the presumed extinction of Pinks by claiming salmon farms changed their sea lice management program in such a dramatic way that not only did some runs not go extinct, they increased 10x.

"Unfair", I think was the term she used to describe how he laid out where reality (as seen through empirical evidence) had summarily destroyed their hypothesis.

Actually, after consideration, I am bumping that 99% to 100% surety it was Morton - reflecting on all the tiptoeing Beamish did around aquaculture and validating the paper in question being published - she must have been front and center.

If my memory serves me right she certainly didn't give him much respect during the Cohen Commission...

 
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