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[bigblockfox]

ya your right its not worth it. nothing relies on the pacific salmon to survive. lol . maybe lets puts some numbers together before we say nobody will support it.

[pwn50m3 f15h3r]

   nothing relies on the pacific salmon to survive. lol .

A lot of things rely on the pacific salmon. The salmon give off lots of nutrients when they die. The forests and rivers need that nutrients. And seals, other fish, orcas, and even some humans live off salmon.

[bigblockfox]

dude sarcasm, i didnt feel like typing all that but you hit it right on the head.

[pwn50m3 f15h3r]

Oops

[bigblockfox]

no problem, buts thats why its so important that something is done before its to late.

[Robert_G]

how much are you wiling to personally spend a year to support such a hatchery program for the Fraser?... especially considering hatcheries built to support these runs in the 70s and 80s basically did not work. Nobody is going to support more hatcheries from general taxes so a few more anglers and guides can have better days of fishing.

You can be so dense, Ralph.
Spending money on something that brings a profitable return is a good thing. You make it sound like taxpayers would be throwing money down the toilet.
The money generated by 'good' salmon fishing can be immeasurable...and that is above and beyond paying back what is spent by taxpayers.

And where do you get this 'hatcheries from the 70s and 80s' don't work' thing? The Chilliwack River hatchery was built in 1980 and the upgrades since then have been minimal. Are you going to tell me that it hasn't been a success? What about the Chehalis? Also successful. I really question where you get your information from.

[Dave]

You can be so dense, Ralph.
Spending money on something that brings a profitable return is a good thing. You make it sound like taxpayers would be throwing money down the toilet.
The money generated by 'good' salmon fishing can be immeasurable...and that is above and beyond paying back what is spent by taxpayers.

And where do you get this 'hatcheries from the 70s and 80s' don't work' thing? The Chilliwack River hatchery was built in 1980 and the upgrades since then have been minimal. Are you going to tell me that it hasn't been a success? What about the Chehalis? Also successful. I really question where you get your information from.

I think Ralph is talking about the fish not being intercepted by the Albion test fishery at this time.  Hatcheries like Quesnel and Eagle River were certainly failures but perhaps with millions of dollars that could be rectified.   Thing is that kind of money will not likely be available again.  Chilliwack and Chehalis hatchery fish are later run and are doing far better than up country early run Chinooks.

[clarki]

You can be so dense, Ralph.

Unfortunately Robert G has not yet mastered the skill of disagreeing with an idea vs disagreeing with a person, and attacking ideas vs attacking a person. Robert, you spoke about having alot of explaining to do to your kids following the PM derby. I expect you would have a lot of explaining to do, as well, if they observed your online personna.

Face it, it all boils down to Maria Slough sockeye!

[Robert_G]

Unfortunately Robert G has not yet mastered the skill of disagreeing with an idea vs disagreeing with a person, and attacking ideas vs attacking a person. Robert, you spoke about having alot of explaining to do to your kids following the PM derby. I expect you would have a lot of explaining to do, as well, if they observed your online personna.

Face it, it all boils down to Maria Slough sockeye!

Sorry, but Ralphs posts have rubbed me the wrong way ever since way back when Anglingbc was the only bc fishing forum. Ralph did say that hatcheries in the 80s were failures, and I think he is way off with that comment. He also said that no one would support hatcheries out of general taxes. The truth however, is that anyone who knows anything about salmon fishing knows that good salmon fishing pays for itself... so both of his statements are incorrect and unresearched...which IMHO, I find very typical of many of his posts, not to mention his overall negativity toward salmon hatcheries is extremely biased.

[RalphH]

You can be so dense, Ralph

. Gotta love it! Being called dense by Robert G! I am flattered you remember me.

While you do have a point you don't consider hatcheries for early Chinook have already proven not to return the money it cost to build and operate them. If these hatcheries were closed because they didn't work - which they didn't, what makes you think. What evidence - and I mean hard evidence do you or Bent_Rod have that hatcheries in the US actually do bring more money back than it costs to operate them?

You also don't consider a lot of anglers, much of the public and almost every fisheries biologist and manager don't want to build hatcheries particularly not to make a small number of guides better off or to help meat anglers stock their freezers. Governments are more than willing to oblige these people and spend tax money elsewhere.

It's a slice Robbie... oh and there are sockeye in Maria Slough. 

[islanddude]

I don't think that the hatcheries were built for guides and meat fisherman. They were built for the commercial fleet by those in Ottawa. Now they have focused on fish farming which is far worse. Fish farms and their rape and pillage of the biomass to feed their fish taking away from the wild stocks. This problem of taking the biomass is world wide. Introduction of diseases that are detrimental to wild salmon and trout from fish farms. Reign in the commercial fleet and get rid of the fish farms out of our province and we might have a chance to rebuild our salmon stocks. Hatcheries will play a big part in this.

[Rodney]

I think Ralph is talking about the fish not being intercepted by the Albion test fishery at this time.  Hatcheries like Quesnel and Eagle River were certainly failures but perhaps with millions of dollars that could be rectified.   Thing is that kind of money will not likely be available again.  Chilliwack and Chehalis hatchery fish are later run and are doing far better than up country early run Chinooks.

Dave, just out of curiosity, why did the summer Mid Fraser River chinook salmon hatchery program fail to produce good returns while the fall Lower Fraser River chinook salmon hatchery program has been successful?

[Dave]

Dave, just out of curiosity, why did the summer Mid Fraser River chinook salmon hatchery program fail to produce good returns while the fall Lower Fraser River chinook salmon hatchery program has been successful?

I don't know Rod but there are people on this site that probably do.

[bkk]

The main reason the upper Fraser chinook hatcheries like Quesnel and Eagle were unsuccessful was that they were trying to produce chinook by using the rearing strategy of 100 days of rearing ( coastal strategy S1) on fish that would normally spend 1 full year in freshwater like coho ( S2). The interior American hatcheries use the yearling smolt program on their inland stocks and it works fine. That is the same strategy that is used on the yearly stocks enhanced out of Spius(S2). The Shuswap stock has the 100 days rearing (S1) life history so that strategy works well there.

[RalphH]

To reiterate - the issue I raised isn't can the hatcheries do something productive, it's where will finding come from? In the US, particularly the Columbia there has been quite a concerted effort to rehabilitate salmon runs to the extent possible because of habitat loss and damage from Dam construction and operation. Large Utility Corporations and Dam authorities have been willing to fund hatcheries etc because it is a far less expensive alternative to drawing down impoundments, reconstructing tailways and fishways.

In Canada we don't have any organization with deep pockets willingly to pony up the funding. There is general opposition to more hatcheries from fisheries scientists and managers and most sport fishing groups. That it was tried once and was a failure at least economically, doesn't make it look like a sound idea.