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[mastercaster]

dave still hasn't explained how these fish our are future !!!

Pretty simple really...they're the only wild salmonid that isn't on the endangered list for pretty much all of the systems in southern BC., including Van Is. (east coast).  Until the last decade or two most sporties did not seriously targeted these fish because other species of salmon were prefered.

If some one told had told me that chum will be on the endangered list in the Squamish the last half a decade twenty years ago I would have said they were daft!!  Back in the nineties an average day on the fly was 30+ fish.  No one would even consider bonking one for food when there appeared to be plenty of springs, coho, (and sockeye for those who wanted to harvest them) which are considered much better table fare.  Back then you couldn't keep them even if you wanted to....all sockeye, pinks and chum were to be released but it wasn't because they were in trouble.  It was because the others weren't and you could easily get your meat from coho, springs, and steelhead.

Now you're you're lucky to get openings on the Squamish as well as other rivers for chum.....no retension either, and all wild coho and steelhead have needed to be released for more than two decades now, too.   No one thought any of these wild salmonid would be in peril since the turn of this century 4 decades ago and look where they are at now.  Over harvesting is the major culprit ....purse seining back then was like shooting fish in a barrel.  Now add in climate change, lack of food sources like herring (also over harvested as well as destruction of their habitat, disease from aquaculture, changing ocean currents, and the list goes on.
 
Luckily pinks still come back in large numbers but fishery management could easily mess this fishery up, as well, if they aren't carefull.  So as Dave pointed out this species is likely to be our future unless you plan on putting hatcheries on every river would be disasterous in more ways than you could imagine.

[RalphH]

Hi Mastercaster. A few points.

I don't believe it's accurate to say Pinks as a wild stock are healthy on the ECVI. In fact all the stocks fished from Cambell River and south are supported by some sort of enhancement. Fisheries introduced in places like Cowichan Bay and Nanaimo Harbour are based on introduced fish raised in net pens. If the enhancement stops or the funding for net pen is lost those fisheries will be gone in a very short time.

Even as it is returns are variable. Right now ECVI anglers are wondering where are the fish at Nile Creek or the Cambell. Check the Oyster River enhancement society site and you can see that some years small number come back.

Pink runs have a history of trouble and sudden inexplicable collapses. Back in the 70s and 80s escapements to the Fraser were not much better than 1 million fish, much lower than 3 million minimum escapement.

A few weeks ago I chatted with an older gentleman who told me he had lived in Squamish back in 70s and the Pink runs all but vanished for a time. He seemed to think that transplants from the Indian River were needed to reestablish the run. I hadn't heard this before and have no way of knowing if it's true.

One reason there have been so many pinks in the Fraser over the last 10+ years is because the commercial value of the fish dropped due to low cost farmed salmon and to salmon ranching in Alaska producing a massive surplus. For many years it was not economical to commercially harvest pinks on the south coast - the return on the fish sometimes didn't even cover the fuel for the boat. That's changing and in 2011 there was significant harvest in the Gulf and the sport fishery was noticeably affected. There were still lots of fish but catching dozens of fish a day wasn't as easy as it was previously - at least for me.

The cause(s) for the decline of wild stocks is various and no one can point at one thing. Harvest of some species - like coho and chinook has been all but nil for a couple of decades in the inner waters but fish stocks aren't rebounding and in some cases are declining. Industry logging, habitat loss, changing ocean conditions (climate change & PH) are likely all involved.  Simple fact is the fishes environment is changing faster and becoming more hostile than the salmon can cope.

[mastercaster]

Hi Mastercaster. A few points.

I don't believe it's accurate to say Pinks as a wild stock are healthy on the ECVI. In fact all the stocks fished from Cambell River and south are supported by some sort of enhancement. Fisheries introduced in places like Cowichan Bay and Nanaimo Harbour are based on introduced fish raised in net pens. If the enhancement stops or the funding for net pen is lost those fisheries will be gone in a very short time.

Even as it is returns are variable. Right now ECVI anglers are wondering where are the fish at Nile Creek or the Cambell. Check the Oyster River enhancement society site and you can see that some years small number come back.

Pink runs have a history of trouble and sudden inexplicable collapses. Back in the 70s and 80s escapements to the Fraser were not much better than 1 million fish, much lower than 3 million minimum escapement.

A few weeks ago I chatted with an older gentleman who told me he had lived in Squamish back in 70s and the Pink runs all but vanished for a time. He seemed to think that transplants from the Indian River were needed to reestablish the run. I hadn't heard this before and have no way of knowing if it's true.

One reason there have been so many pinks in the Fraser over the last 10+ years is because the commercial value of the fish dropped due to low cost farmed salmon and to salmon ranching in Alaska producing a massive surplus. For many years it was not economical to commercially harvest pinks on the south coast - the return on the fish sometimes didn't even cover the fuel for the boat. That's changing and in 2011 there was significant harvest in the Gulf and the sport fishery was noticeably affected. There were still lots of fish but catching dozens of fish a day wasn't as easy as it was previously - at least for me.

The cause(s) for the decline of wild stocks is various and no one can point at one thing. Harvest of some species - like coho and chinook has been all but nil for a couple of decades in the inner waters but fish stocks aren't rebounding and in some cases are declining. Industry logging, habitat loss, changing ocean conditions (climate change & PH) are likely all involved.  Simple fact is the fishes environment is changing faster and becoming more hostile than the salmon can cope.

Oops...got my coasts mixed up....meant to say west coast.  I know about the enhancement on the east coast.  I've fished the Mill Cr. and Departure Bay fish for a few seasons when they introduced fish to that area.  And I also have heard how the fishing numbers have gone way down at the Oyster, Nile, etc. especially on the odd number years (the smaller cycle of the two).

Still....I believe what Dave was feferring to was the fact they are far less endangered than the other salmonid and that your chances of catching them is far better.  I just hope that when I have grand kids down the road that they don't have to ask me what a salmon was and having to explain to them that they were once an abundant species back when I was your age.

[wonder]

2011 I got a couple whales at island 22 this year nothing over 3 or 4lbs

[RalphH]

Ok but WCVI doesn't have any substantial stocks of pink salmon.

Pink Salmon as the fish of the future? They are a coldwater species similar to sockeye. Coho and Chinook can handle higher average temperatures. If ocean warming continues pinks may crash on the south coast. Salmon on the south coast don't look good over the long term...maybe Tuna and bonito are the fish of the future.

[Brook Trout]

The Thompson Pinks get quite big by the time they make it up. Caught and released quite a few humped males that would be anywhere from 8-10lbs

[typhoon]

The Thompson Pinks get quite big by the time they make it up. Caught and released quite a few humped males that would be anywhere from 8-10lbs

Why do you think that Pinks get bigger as they get further from the salt?

[bkk]

A few weeks ago I chatted with an older gentleman who told me he had lived in Squamish back in 70s and the Pink runs all but vanished for a time. He seemed to think that transplants from the Indian River were needed to reestablish the run. I hadn't heard this before and have no way of knowing if it's true.

I moved to Squamish in '84 and I can confirm what the gentleman has said about Squamish pinks. They indeed were few and far between. Chinook broodstock programs on the Cheakamus would only encounter a few pinks over the course of the summer on pink years. Fish were transplanted in from the Indian River over a few cycles. These fish took well and then crashed again after a huge flood.  Back to the Indian again and the same results.  Runs started to improve and then protected habitat was constructed on the Cheakamus, Ashlu and upper Squamish. This buffered the effects from the big floods and provided refugee areas for the fish to "hang on" until conditions improved again. This has worked well. In the 2003 major flood on the Cheakamus, egg to fry survival was 0.5% for the river. The protected habitat produced  more fry than the whole river. With improved ocean survivals for pinks and lack of big floods the last 4 cycles the pink run has responded to the state it is in now. Hopefully this will continue.

[milo]

Some amazing information in this thread about pink salmon runs in BC.
I think such good info deserves a thread of its own.
Rodney?

[RalphH]

I understood that the Pinks in the Cheakamus were extirpated after the Hydro project was complete but I thought the Mamquam and mainstem Squamish were not affected by that.

[bkk]

The Cheakamus pinks were not extirpated after the hydro project which was constructed in '58. Large return of 300 000+ In '63. Slow death by floods and other events until mid 80's then a recovery to current levels. Squamish and Mamquam mirrored the same events.

Pinks are known for their boom and bust cycle's so it may all be bad timing with ocean survivals, bad land use practices, floods and over harvest. Hopefully the current positive trend will continue as it is nice to have one stock of fish in the Squamish system doing well. Now if only chum would recover!

[Ian Forbes]

Very nice male Pink, Milo. The occasional Pink gets into the low teens and I believe the world record is just under 15 pounds. It was caught on the Olympic Peninsula. It had a huge hump. The biggest I've seen was on the Indian River in 1958 when I worked as summer help on the weir there. It had 5 lures in it and weighed just under 14 pounds. After removing the lures it was released. I still have a few of those lures in my collection.

I lived in Squamish for 4 years in the 1970s and the river was full of Chum in those days, but not so many Pinks. There was a great run of Chinook in the summer, but the river was often too high to fish at that time. But, the coho fishing was a sure thing in October. It was almost too easy. Of course, logging the head waters had a huge impact on the rivers and we were stuck with a flood scenario every year.

Pink salmon are the only saviour for rivers today because their dying carcasses are needed as the only source of fertilizer. We can thank DFO and the logging industry for the loss of the Chinook, coho and steelhead.

[Dave]

dave still hasn't explained how these fish our are future !!!

I didn't reply because I thought you were being facetious and, I have been away.   There were lots of good responses on the value and changing fortunes of pinks.  They are our future wild salmon, IMO, due to  their 2 year cycle, their relatively short migration pattern, run timing (generally later in the year meaning cooler water), the fact they don't need freshwater rearing habitat and the fact they still have obviously adequate egg to fry survival even after spawning in the Fraser.  Really, all these fish need is cold, oxygenated water, decent and stable  spawning gravel, a healthy estuary, and a less greedy human population.
And as Ian Forbes noted, in return they supply much needed nutrients to coastal rivers.

[NiceFish]

What are the chances there is a run created in our south-coastal waters to create a run for every year?

[Easywater]

What are the chances there is a run created in our south-coastal waters to create a run for every year?

I can't believe how many times I've told this story on this board - hope they are all the same!

http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=30740.msg292672#msg292672
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=21042.msg203246#msg203246
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=28683.msg273335#msg273335
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=25182.msg237835#msg237835
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=19119.msg181565#msg181565
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=17758.msg170557#msg170557
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=22025.msg207333#msg207333