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[TNAngler]

Maybe he was talking Catch and Release, DanL?  I have no idea whether 20/fish/angler/day is realistic or not though as I don't BB.

With lots of fish like 3 years ago, yeah, possibly.  The way it was the first week of the season, not even close.  On average outside of my boat, there was probably 1 or 2 sockeye caught PER BOAT.  Unfortunately I believe a couple of those were kept and most were snagged.  For Chinook, there was 1 caught for every 10 boats per day.  From our location, we can see a number of people bar fishing.  Probably a good 30 or 40 rods.  They caught nothing.

[TNAngler]

^^ I don't think your a "Troll" at all, but I DO think you'd probably make the "Beak" category. Why you ask ?? Ask any long time bar fisherman, they'll tell you that probably 99.99% of the Chinnook caught bar fishing the Fraser River are in no more than 5 to 10 feet of water, the sockeye are a deeper running fish as the look for the colder/faster water while the Chinnook like to travel in slower, more conservative waters.

Look at it this way, why do most of the Chinnook travel down the West Coast in 50 fathoms of water and shallower ? They like to hug the beach almost all the time, how do I know this ?? I was a commercial fisherman for 30 years and there isn't much you can tell me about what and where salmon travel.

As for your secret wool combo, that's near THE TOPS in the comic department when yakking about BB'ing and flossing. I've bottom bounced with pencil lead and 3 foot leaders with spin-n-glows, plain old dew worms, gooey bobs and the likes in the old days for Steelhead on many Island rivers, including the Gold and yes that was and can still be a great way to get fish but only if the river bottom and river flow is right for the said method.

To finish I'll just say this,.......Your fish were flossed, deal with it, accept it and carry on, your not the only one guilty of catching too many sockeye while looking for the Chinnook to retain and if this carries on we bar fishermen won't have a fishery to enjoy at all.

I wish the bouncing betty was never made but it is what it is so................

Travel in the ocean and the river don't always correlate unless you were a commercial fisherman fishing in the river.  The sockeye, at least the smaller ones, are going to be in 4 feet of water or less usually.  That is where most of the ones caught from the beach are, snagged at the very bottom of the drift.  Only the bigger sockeye are out in the deeper waters of the holes we fish which is why the previous couple years, when the sockeye have been so small that we have only caught chinook and no sockeye.  The fact we were catching some meant they were bigger (and they were) than they have been in the past.  The Chinook, when most of these fisherman catch them, are very early in their cast, in deeper water.  I have caught them in 6 feet of water as well, but not right up against shore.  You might find some up there but they are usually pretty small.  I would bet most of your bar fisherman are fishing more of a flat, where it drops off pretty quick and then flattens out and they travel that shelf.  The sockeye right up against the drop off toward the top, the Chinook at the base of the drop off.

Look at the reaction of Chinook versus sockeye when something isn't right, ie they get freaked by a net.  Chinook will go and sulk in a deep hole, just hanging out for a while before moving on.  Most of the rest of the fish try and get away, heading upstream quicker.

Bottom composition also plays a huge roll in where the fish go and different kinds of fish like different bottoms.  Chinook are going to like bigger rock, stumps, crap like that.  Where we were fishing, the current is slightly stronger along the side because of the way the river splits.  Every Chinook we caught was out in the deeper water where a stump was upstream a little bit breaking the current.

Again, nobody has explained the color difference I and others have witnessed.  Also, if I am flossing them, why are so many hooked through the beak or the opposite way it would hook if being pulled through the mouth?  If it was being pulled through the mouth, assuming fishing on the right bank according to the fish, you would expect it on the outside of the left cheek or inside of the right cheek.  Not where I am hooking them.

Also, for the ones that say I don't know what a fish hit feels like and that it is just getting stopped like it would against a rock, all I can do is shake my head.  I have fished for salmon just about every way there is.  I have experienced many hits on a whole lot of different tackle.  My favorite form a fishing is back drifting a plug for steelhead.  They get so mad at it that they absolutely kill it.  I have been bar fishing with more weight than we fished for in the Fraser and had a salmon pick up the spin-n-glo and roe, swim upstream with it and was holding the pole when it turned out from the bank and I set the hook.  The hits we have aren't quite as mad as the steelhead with the plugs but they are pretty close.  I have flossed a good number of sockeye back in the days they were more plentiful and know what it feels like.  We did what we could to avoid this from happening.

So are you saying with your spin-n-glo's for steelhead that you were flossing them there too?  I bet they would hit that thing pretty good.  So how does that mean that I am flossing if I am using pretty much the same thing you did before?

[milo]

Look at the reaction of Chinook versus sockeye when something isn't right, ie they get freaked by a net.  Chinook will go and sulk in a deep hole, just hanging out for a while before moving on.  Most of the rest of the fish try and get away, heading upstream quicker.

Actually, chinook are smarter than you credit them for. Most will take you on a long run DOWNSTREAM upon hook up. They know how to use the current to their advantage. As ageneral rule, chinook don't go upstream voluntarily when hooked. You have to FORCE them.

Also, if I am flossing them, why are so many hooked through the beak or the opposite way it would hook if being pulled through the mouth?  If it was being pulled through the mouth, assuming fishing on the right bank according to the fish, you would expect it on the outside of the left cheek or inside of the right cheek.

For two reasons. Hooks tend to "bounce off" a bit before they get impaled (due to the yarn or corky or knot or whatever). A flossed fish can have the hook impaled just about anywhere in and around the mouth.
You were flossing them. Live with it.

[Bently]

Travel in the ocean and the river don't always correlate unless you were a commercial fisherman fishing in the river.  The sockeye, at least the smaller ones, are going to be in 4 feet of water or less usually.  That is where most of the ones caught from the beach are, snagged at the very bottom of the drift.  Only the bigger sockeye are out in the deeper waters of the holes we fish which is why the previous couple years, when the sockeye have been so small that we have only caught chinook and no sockeye.  The fact we were catching some meant they were bigger (and they were) than they have been in the past.  The Chinook, when most of these fisherman catch them, are very early in their cast, in deeper water.  I have caught them in 6 feet of water as well, but not right up against shore.  You might find some up there but they are usually pretty small.  I would bet most of your bar fisherman are fishing more of a flat, where it drops off pretty quick and then flattens out and they travel that shelf.  The sockeye right up against the drop off toward the top, the Chinook at the base of the drop off.

Look at the reaction of Chinook versus sockeye when something isn't right, ie they get freaked by a net.  Chinook will go and sulk in a deep hole, just hanging out for a while before moving on.  Most of the rest of the fish try and get away, heading upstream quicker.

Bottom composition also plays a huge roll in where the fish go and different kinds of fish like different bottoms.  Chinook are going to like bigger rock, stumps, crap like that.  Where we were fishing, the current is slightly stronger along the side because of the way the river splits.  Every Chinook we caught was out in the deeper water where a stump was upstream a little bit breaking the current.

Again, nobody has explained the color difference I and others have witnessed.  Also, if I am flossing them, why are so many hooked through the beak or the opposite way it would hook if being pulled through the mouth?  If it was being pulled through the mouth, assuming fishing on the right bank according to the fish, you would expect it on the outside of the left cheek or inside of the right cheek.  Not where I am hooking them.

Also, for the ones that say I don't know what a fish hit feels like and that it is just getting stopped like it would against a rock, all I can do is shake my head.  I have fished for salmon just about every way there is.  I have experienced many hits on a whole lot of different tackle.  My favorite form a fishing is back drifting a plug for steelhead.  They get so mad at it that they absolutely kill it.  I have been bar fishing with more weight than we fished for in the Fraser and had a salmon pick up the spin-n-glo and roe, swim upstream with it and was holding the pole when it turned out from the bank and I set the hook.  The hits we have aren't quite as mad as the steelhead with the plugs but they are pretty close.  I have flossed a good number of sockeye back in the days they were more plentiful and know what it feels like.  We did what we could to avoid this from happening.

So are you saying with your spin-n-glo's for steelhead that you were flossing them there too?  I bet they would hit that thing pretty good.  So how does that mean that I am flossing if I am using pretty much the same thing you did before?

Put it this way, if a fish that is flossed can have the hook in it's back then they cana have the hook end up anywhere, not just on the side you think it should be, or the part of the jaw it should be, I mean shake your head lad, water current, the fish's reaction, many things can decide where the hook ends up.

BTW, I've never flossed a Steelhead with a piece of pencil lead and a THREE FOOT LEADER with a lure or bait while bouncing in the old days. I think your leader is much longer than THREE FEET while fishing the Fraser, and if you say it isn't I'd be tempted to call you a big fat liar........period.

Anyways, glad to hear your back home safe and sound, God knows we've got enough anglers up here with blood in their eyes and a no care attitude for sockeye as it is. The only thing they care about is hooking a fish, may it be the right species or not.......sad, very sad. 

[Fishawn]

TNAngler, how long, may I ask is the leader that you and your buddies are using?

[TNAngler]

Actually, chinook are smarter than you credit them for. Most will take you on a long run DOWNSTREAM upon hook up. They know how to use the current to their advantage. As ageneral rule, chinook don't go upstream voluntarily when hooked. You have to FORCE them.

For two reasons. Hooks tend to "bounce off" a bit before they get impaled (due to the yarn or corky or knot or whatever). A flossed fish can have the hook impaled just about anywhere in and around the mouth.
You were flossing them. Live with it.

You didn't read what I wrote.  What I said had nothing to do with when they get hooked.  I said if they get spooked.  I also said most species other than chinook swim upstream.  That isn't really either as a bunch of them would much rather go downstream to something they have already experienced if they are spooked.  It was a statement about Chinook holing up in deep holes, counter to being more shallow.

Again, explain the color difference.

If I am just impaling them, then you would expect the hook location to be random, or mostly so.  Not consistent.  Unless you are going to tell me that no matter where in the drift I am, I am flossing them through the mouth at exactly the same angle and duration and it is bouncing consistently for all fish.

I realize a bunch of you are purists and think that only your way of fishing is correct and the right method.  I also think you are seeing a great natural resource and source of enjoyment slipping through your fingers so you are lashing out at the only thing you feel you can.  When you consider that one drift net can catch just as many fish as most bottom bouncers probably catches in an entire season, it seems like you are barking up the wrong tree.  What is the survival rate for a fish that is caught and released?  Lower than if it hadn't been, right?  What is the survival rate of a fish caught in an illegal drift net?  0%  I suppose if they pick it up quick enough they might be able to be released but realistically, if they are already fishing illegally, why would they throw anything back.  One guy with a drift net can do in a day what boatloads of bottom bouncers can't do an entire season.

[TNAngler]

Put it this way, if a fish that is flossed can have the hook in it's back then they cana have the hook end up anywhere, not just on the side you think it should be, or the part of the jaw it should be, I mean shake your head lad, water current, the fish's reaction, many things can decide where the hook ends up.

BTW, I've never flossed a Steelhead with a piece of pencil lead and a THREE FOOT LEADER with a lure or bait while bouncing in the old days. I think your leader is much longer than THREE FEET while fishing the Fraser, and if you say it isn't I'd be tempted to call you a big fat liar........period.

Anyways, glad to hear your back home safe and sound, God knows we've got enough anglers up here with blood in their eyes and a no care attitude for sockeye as it is. The only thing they care about is hooking a fish, may it be the right species or not.......sad, very sad. 

As you said, many things can decide the hook placement.  Doesn't the fact that they are very consistently in one of two places, like 90% of the time of better, mean that there is something other than being flossed happening?  I deal with numbers all day.  Our hook locations are not random in the least which is what you would expect with flossing.  A couple spots with higher possibility because of the way the drift is happening but a whole bunch of other places.  That isn't the case.  So, logically, you can't explain that by saying I was flossing.

To answer the question, yes, our leaders are longer than 3 feet.  But let me ask you why you used a 3 foot leader?  Why not a 1 foot leader?  Why not a 5 foot leader?  Why not a 6 inch leader?  If you are bouncing on the bottom, your spin-n-glo is trailing behind the sinker.  It starts out about 3 feet above the sinker when the sinker first hits with a 3 foot leader and is slowly sinking.  Your goal is to get that spin-n-glo to be within striking distance for the fish at the optimal time.  My guess is the fish were probably a foot and a half to two feet off the bottom.  If the water were deeper but the fish weren't as deep, wouldn't the leader need to be longer so that you were indeed actually in their strike zone when in the optimal zone?

Long leader = flossing = snagging is probably generally true but not always.  That is all I want you guys to realize.

[TNAngler]

Let me also state that I did not create this thread, it was part of a different thread and Rod separated this out and named it.  A lot of the people out there disgust me just as much if not more than most of you.  There are bad bottom bouncers.  Probably most of them are bad.  There are bad bar fisherman although probably not anywhere near a majority.  There are bad FN with nets, percentage wise probably small.  If they made bottom bouncing illegal, I would find some other way to catch fish or go somewhere else.  Unfortunately the times I am able to visit up there are very limited and the fishing is also limited.  Telling me that I am flossing them and to just deal with it when I have too much evidence to make me believe that I am not flossing them hasn't changed my mind.  The holes in the arguments that I am flossing are just too much to overcome.

Now, if someone wants to take Rod's that we should limit our sockeye catch because there aren't enough fish, that I can buy.  However, my 10 sockeye a day split between 3 people for 3 days, and 2 fish for 3 people the last day I have a hard time believing is going to impact the run.  Especially considering the 17k reported sockeye caught over the previous weekend.  And considering I probably only saw 100 or so fish caught, possibly 150, counting chinook, at least the place I was at wasn't going to decimate the run compared with other methods.

[mastercaster]

TNAngler, how long, may I ask is the leader that you and your buddies are using?

STILL NOT ANSWERED.......4'?  5'?  6'?   More?  How difficult is this question that it has not been answered despite many requests?  It's pretty much a sure way to figure out whether fish are being flossed or not.

[TNAngler]

STILL NOT ANSWERED.......4'?  5'?  6'?   More?  How difficult is this question that it has not been answered despite many requests?  It's pretty much a sure way to figure out whether fish are being flossed or not.

Because I think it is a null tell.  What if I told you the distance was 6'?  What if I told you it was 40'?  That still doesn't explain the color issue and where the hook is located unless you are going to try and tell me that with a 6' leader that the hook is always going to end up in one of two spots.  Besides, the length of the leader does change based on how deep the water is and how deep you expect the fish to be.  See my previous response.  If you are fishing in deeper water and the fish are high up, you need a longer leader.

[Tex]

 

 

In all seriousness, there is no way for me to know for sure whether or not you are flossing without actually being there.  That said, I'd say I would be fairly shocked if it turned out you were getting the majority of those sockeye to bite (vs being flossed) given what you've told us and what I know of the fishery you are describing. 

[TNAngler]

 

 

In all seriousness, there is no way for me to know for sure whether or not you are flossing without actually being there.  That said, I'd say I would be fairly shocked if it turned out you were getting the majority of those sockeye to bite (vs being flossed) given what you've told us and what I know of the fishery you are describing.

It's color

Well, anybody that has been there has said we have not.  Fisheries guys, other fisherman that have asked our secret... a bunch.  Maybe next year I will invite one of you guys to go with me but you will have to fight my wife for a spot on the boat.

[Bently]

If you are fishing in deeper water and the fish are high up, you need a longer leader.

That's hilarious !!!

Most decent fishermen would just use a float if the fish are up in the water, {after all their biting right ??} and there's still no need for a long leader. Hows the foot taste, hehe !!


The more you try and explain your BS, the more it's becoming obvious what your actually doing, and that is that your flossing like everybody else who BB's on the Fraser.

BTW, doesn't a hook with yarn sink also ?? How does it stay "UP" in the water, you didn't mention how that happens.

 

[TNAngler]

That's hilarious !!!

Most decent fishermen would just use a float if the fish are up in the water, {after all their biting right ??} and there's still no need for a long leader. Hows the foot taste, hehe !!


The more you try and explain your BS, the more it's becoming obvious what your actually doing, and that is that your flossing like everybody else who BB's on the Fraser.

There are reasons not to use a float.  It is very difficult to use a float out far enough on the Fraser that we are fishing and actually have any ability to react to a strike.  Using a float around some others casting unless they are using a float as well is asking for all kinds of tangles.

If you think it is such BS, then explain how I am wrong with the color (colour if you prefer) difference, and the location of the hooks?  Because a lot of people here keep repeating the same things over and over and over like zombies.  Bottom bouncing is bad.  Bottom bouncing is flossing.  And yet nobody has yet attempted to dispute the two items that indicate anything but flossing or snagging.

[liketofish]

I believe that you are sincere, otherwise you won't spend so much time to defend yourself here. Perhaps just reveal the colour then with a picture of the yarn. Then people will try it out and no one will say you are a troll. Actually this is good for the fish because people will switch to this yarn and catch fish inside the mouth, and you will bury all the anti-bb people's pride and ego once and for all, and you can disprove their almost religious claim that sockeye doesn't bite on the Fraser. There will be less need to bounce aimlessly and catch fish at the wrong spot. Since you didn't invent the colour, and since it is available in the store, then what is the big deal to reveal it? Just compare this to the pink fishery, no body is trying to hide that anything in pink colour will catch pink and what is that big a deal to reveal this to the rest of the fishing world. It will only help the fish to have less foul hooking and it will prove to others that you are not trolling here. My humble 2 cents.

As far as not using the float, like in bottom bouncing with shorter leader in the Vedder, the main reason is to slow down the drift. The top water is fast and can push a float down too fast for any fish to react in murky water. But the bottom of the river with all those rocks and gravels can create pockets of slower water, and the fact that each time the lead hit a rock, it slows it down. This slowing down allows more time for the fish to react to the wool if they want to bite it. I often bounced with a top down presentation in deep pools and fast deep runs with short leader on a small spin & glo to get steelhead not catchable with a float. After fishing 20+ years, you learn something. Some of these comments are just from people who think they know it all about all fishing methods or approaches. Take it easy TN.