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[troutbreath]

"One thing that needs to be taken away from this work (that Morton will never tell you) is that it is not entirely clear what drives these outbreaks.  This goes for many viruses."


I guess stacking them in a net pen and shovelling antibiotics, lice killer and for the love of Frankenstien who knows what else isn't going to cause a problem. Chowabunga. 

[shuswapsteve]

You should go into politics Stevey.... 

On one hand you don't have any conclusive evidence that feedlots are not killing wild salmon.

Then you dance around that issue by typing a lot of words, hoping that whoever reads it will dismiss the evidence that feedlots are killing wild salmon....

However, by changing my view of politicians, I find them amusing as well....

 

You are sort of like Chicken Little without the feathers.  Obviously you didn't read any of the literature posted here.

[aquapaloosa]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151540215142016&l=65b3a8d6a1

[chris gadsden]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151540215142016&l=65b3a8d6a1

Good to see they are paying attention.

[shuswapsteve]

More for Stevie to rebuke and dance with.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/disease-killing-pacific-herring-threatens-salmon-scientist-warns/article13722113/


Fron Alex

Dear Minister of BC Agriculture:

"I am writing to file an official complaint regarding what I see as misleading comment by your employee, Dr. Gary Marty, to the public in the Globe and Mail today.

In this article: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/disease-killing-pacific-herring-threatens-salmon-scientist-warns/article13722113/

Dr. Marty is quoted suggesting that a limited VHS outbreak could be "actually good…" for herring populations in BC.

While Dr. Marty appears to be quoting scientific research, he does not know if this is a "limited outbreak" and he omits the recent and relevant results in a paper co-published by DFO (attached) that reports that VHS can infect Atlantic salmon and "spillback" into wild populations causing 100% mortality in herring in 3/4 trials.

Well, Morton does not know if this is a full-blown outbreak but this isn't stopping her from reaching for the headlines.  Morton is the last person who should accuse others of omitting information.  Salmonconfidential is full of that.  Marty is a fish pathologist - Morton is not. 

Given that these herring were observed in an area surrounded by Atlantic salmon farms to the south, east and north, it is my opinion that Dr. Marty should have added comment regarding this high relevant and alarming finding by DFO. The CFIA reports there are salmon farms infected with VHS http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/aquatic-animals/diseases/reportable/2013/eng/1360390270607/1360390361782

If Morton would have read the literature (from people like Dr. Garver and Dr. Kent) before writing this letter she would have found out that VHS is already known and reported.  VHS is endemic to our waters.  It is not some mysterious European virus.  Marty already admitted in the Globe and Mail article that VHS (and VEN) have been on the West Coast for a long time.  It already occurs to some degree on farms, here but it is not found to be very virulent.  It would have also been nice for Morton to note how Atlantic salmon obtain the virus in the article.  If she would have read some more of Dr. Garver's literature she would have found that out.   

"3.3. Experiment 3: transmission of VHSV from Atlantic salmon to herring
Transmission of VHSV from Atlantic salmon to sympatric Pacific herring was indicated by 100% mortality and recovery of VHSV with titers exceeding 1 106 from herring sentinels in 3 out of 4 immersion replicates."

This paper openly notes that: "herring biomass in salmon netpens can measure in the tons in some salmon farms (unpublished observation, K. Garver)"

Morton clearly cherry picks what she wants to show for maximum effect.  If she was really interested in informing the public then she should not leave out the other literature.  It is not a coincidence that Morton chose not to include (or discuss) the other paper Dr. Garver was involved with (that same year) or the literature from Dr. Marty who has worked with herring.  I am not denying that result from this study; however, it is too soon to say there is a problem and having the herring that Morton captured does not indicate a major outbreak.  One hundred fish with these symptoms does not necessarily indicate a big outbreak.  In addition, I also do not see much for evidence of VHS out of control on BC fish farms presented by Morton.  I also do not see any mention by her of the abundance of herring in Georgia Strait this year.

I am all for investigating, but not for fear mongering.  Yet, when you read the G&M article it makes it seem like all hell has broken loose.  Morton basically ignores what we already know about VHS (explained by Garver; sort of like deja vu because Morton ignores what Dr. Miller says also), its presence in herring (even at low levels), how it is monitored on farms, and what farms do to reduce its occurrence.  There are also other factors which influence how this virus impacts fish like herring.  Marty explained this in the article, but Morton didn't.  Who is really being misleading?

I am requesting that DFO and/or the province of BC follow up and correct Dr. Marty's quote in the Globe and Mail. The governments of BC have the responsibility to inform the public accurately about a resource as valuable as herring. It is unethical in my view to suggest that herring bleeding throughout their bodies could be "actually good." I would also like to know how the DFO and the Province of BC, who are responsible for the siting of each salmon farm, have responded to VHS in salmon farms and the recent DFO finding that this can potentially cause 100% mortality in BC herring."

If Morton is going to accuse Dr. Marty of being unethical in this respect she should at least try to interpret what he said correctly.  Marty did not say that "herring bleeding throughout their bodies could be actually good".  Dr. Marty said limited outbreaks of the two diseases are not necessarily a bad thing.  In this respect he has a valid point.  Don't believe me?  Well read up on it.  It is valid because contrary to what Morton will have you believe, diseases in the aquatic ecosystem are not abnormal.  There are already many endemic pathogens off our coast (read Cohen Technical Report #1).  Some individuals may die from a disease, but others may become more immune.  Outbreaks do not necessarily have to have fish farms as the root cause.  The severity of a disease is can be dependent on the interaction of numerous variables which include the host, the pathogen and the environment.  Environmental conditions may be more of a factor about whether or not a outbreak develops and how severe it is rather than the virus itself.  Was this ever mentioned by Morton in the article?  You are always going to have fish in any population die of a disease with or without fish farms.  Marty doesn't need to be corrected on anything he said.   Morton is the one that needs to go back and read the literature and be objective in her assessment of this virus, especially in the media.  What I do agree with Morton on is the slow response by the feds - not so much the apparent lack of testing of her samples, but just getting back to her to explain any delay in getting back to her.   

[alwaysfishn]

Obviously you didn't read any of the literature posted here.

If you're referring to the feedlot propaganda you and other feedlot boys post....  you are correct.

Like DFO your mission appears to be a PR campaign to convince the public that the feedlots are not killing wild salmon. They should be doing the right thing and getting the feedlots out of the ocean, then doing the research and once they've conclusively proven that feedlots are not going to kill the wild salmon we can then think about putting them back....

[shuswapsteve]

If you're referring to the feedlot propaganda you and other feedlot boys post....  you are correct.

Like DFO your mission appears to be a PR campaign to convince the public that the feedlots are not killing wild salmon. They should be doing the right thing and getting the feedlots out of the ocean, then doing the research and once they've conclusively proven that feedlots are not going to kill the wild salmon we can then think about putting them back....

Actually I am talking about the literature from people like Dr. Garver from DFO.  The same person Morton is quoting.  The only difference is that she omits one article and cherry picks from the other.  Sort of sounds like you, AF.

[chris gadsden]

Well, Morton does not know if this is a full-blown outbreak but this isn't stopping her from reaching for the headlines.  Morton is the last person who should accuse others of omitting information.  Salmonconfidential is full of that.  Marty is a fish pathologist - Morton is not. 

If Morton would have read the literature (from people like Dr. Garver and Dr. Kent) before writing this letter she would have found out that VHS is already known and reported.  VHS is endemic to our waters.  It is not some mysterious European virus.  Marty already admitted in the Globe and Mail article that VHS (and VEN) have been on the West Coast for a long time.  It already occurs to some degree on farms, here but it is not found to be very virulent.  It would have also been nice for Morton to note how Atlantic salmon obtain the virus in the article.  If she would have read some more of Dr. Garver's literature she would have found that out.   

Morton clearly cherry picks what she wants to show for maximum effect.  If she was really interested in informing the public then she should not leave out the other literature.  It is not a coincidence that Morton chose not to include (or discuss) the other paper Dr. Garver was involved with (that same year) or the literature from Dr. Marty who has worked with herring.  I am not denying that result from this study; however, it is too soon to say there is a problem and having the herring that Morton captured does not indicate a major outbreak.  One hundred fish with these symptoms does not necessarily indicate a big outbreak.  In addition, I also do not see much for evidence of VHS out of control on BC fish farms presented by Morton.  I also do not see any mention by her of the abundance of herring in Georgia Strait this year.

I am all for investigating, but not for fear mongering.  Yet, when you read the G&M article it makes it seem like all hell has broken loose.  Morton basically ignores what we already know about VHS (explained by Garver; sort of like deja vu because Morton ignores what Dr. Miller says also), its presence in herring (even at low levels), how it is monitored on farms, and what farms do to reduce its occurrence.  There are also other factors which influence how this virus impacts fish like herring.  Marty explained this in the article, but Morton didn't.  Who is really being misleading?

If Morton is going to accuse Dr. Marty of being unethical in this respect she should at least try to interpret what he said correctly.  Marty did not say that "herring bleeding throughout their bodies could be actually good".  Dr. Marty said limited outbreaks of the two diseases are not necessarily a bad thing.  In this respect he has a valid point.  Don't believe me?  Well read up on it.  It is valid because contrary to what Morton will have you believe, diseases in the aquatic ecosystem are not abnormal.  There are already many endemic pathogens off our coast (read Cohen Technical Report #1).  Some individuals may die from a disease, but others may become more immune.  Outbreaks do not necessarily have to have fish farms as the root cause.  The severity of a disease is can be dependent on the interaction of numerous variables which include the host, the pathogen and the environment.  Environmental conditions may be more of a factor about whether or not a outbreak develops and how severe it is rather than the virus itself.  Was this ever mentioned by Morton in the article?  You are always going to have fish in any population die of a disease with or without fish farms.  Marty doesn't need to be corrected on anything he said.   Morton is the one that needs to go back and read the literature and be objective in her assessment of this virus, especially in the media.  What I do agree with Morton on is the slow response by the feds - not so much the apparent lack of testing of her samples, but just getting back to her to explain any delay in getting back to her.   

What are your thoughts and comments on all the problems FF have caused in all the other countries world wide for many years or do you think all this is false propaganda from those that oppose FF?

How will it be any diferent here?

[dnibbles]

Stevestep, you're on a roll tonight!!!!

Chris, nice article you posted back a ways. Good to see the educated and balanced discussion from some individuals. Without a doubt, fish farming has caused issues in several other countries. So has overfishing, habitat degradation, hatcheries, climate change, industrial pollution etc. Let's just keep looking at each one on the Pacific Coast and assess the risks as they are present in the north Pacific, and try not to jump to conclusions based on potentially spurious correlations from elsewhere.

Correlation does not always equal causation. 

[dnibbles]

You should go into politics Stevey.... 

On one hand you don't have any conclusive evidence that feedlots are not killing wild salmon.

Then you dance around that issue by typing a lot of words, hoping that whoever reads it will dismiss the evidence that feedlots are killing wild salmon....


 

af quote from another thread:

"If I understand you correctly you seem to be suggesting that no one should say anything unless they have conclusive proof.....   Usually when there is conclusive proof it's already to late. When dealing with wild salmon stocks shouldn't the precautionary principle be applied?"

Another contradiction of himself? Classic Carl!

[alwaysfishn]

af quote from another thread:

"If I understand you correctly you seem to be suggesting that no one should say anything unless they have conclusive proof.....   Usually when there is conclusive proof it's already to late. When dealing with wild salmon stocks shouldn't the precautionary principle be applied?"

Another contradiction of himself? Classic Carl!

Appears that you are the only one seeing a contradiction....

[shuswapsteve]

af quote from another thread:

"If I understand you correctly you seem to be suggesting that no one should say anything unless they have conclusive proof.....   Usually when there is conclusive proof it's already to late. When dealing with wild salmon stocks shouldn't the precautionary principle be applied?"

Another contradiction of himself? Classic Carl!

lol

Good one.

[chris gadsden]

Stevestep, you're on a roll tonight!!!!

Chris, nice article you posted back a ways. Good to see the educated and balanced discussion from some individuals. Without a doubt, fish farming has caused issues in several other countries. So has overfishing, habitat degradation, hatcheries, climate change, industrial pollution etc. Let's just keep looking at each one on the Pacific Coast and assess the risks as they are present in the north Pacific, and try not to jump to conclusions based on potentially spurious correlations from elsewhere.

Correlation does not always equal causation.

Yes there are some things that can be contolled and improved if the governments will put the funds towards them but saying that I am so so concerned as are many that oppose FF in other countries that we will and are having the same problems here. Many mistakes have been made in the past and we should learn from them.

Also Alex is just one on many concerned people in many countries that have and are raising the red flag on this issue, she is not the only one by any means, there are hundreds that do the same work she is bringing to the fore front (sp) world wide. Many condemn Alex and others but it is important that we have them to try and seek answers that can be suppressed by those in power or invested interests as in many cases it is money that comes first before the well being of the environment and those that live there. They, the many species can not speak their concerns so we must do that for them.

Simple and not flowery words I know but I donot try to make statements with fancy scientific words to confuse the subject matter, sorry about that as I did not get a university degree, 50 plus years ago.

[troutbreath]

"Correlation does not always equal causation."


ummm are you serious. So you ignore all the problems that fish farms have caused worldwide because of that cow cud of a comment?

[dnibbles]

"Correlation does not always equal causation."


ummm are you serious. So you ignore all the problems that fish farms have caused worldwide because of that cow cud of a comment?

Read my last post. You'll see I say "Without a doubt, fish farming has caused issues in several other countries".

But yes, I am serious. Correlation does not always equal causation. If you disagree with that statement, I'm not really sure how to continue an educated discussion here.