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[TNAngler]

^^ Tide, where the fish are, the number of fish in the opened area, these are all concerns that would make a time allowed set to be non productive to your idea. The places seine boats set a lot of the time are determined by what the tide is doing, how many boats are fishing the area, etc etc, it would be a huge fiasco to try and do all that.

I realize all of that affect where the fish are and where the seiners set.  That doesn't change if all of them open at 6 versus some of them going at 6 and some at 12 and some at 3.  It would even some things out, although chances are they would all want to be out there at the first favorable tide.

[Bently]

You get there early {usually a day or two} and anchor for position, if say Johnstone Straits is opened then you will have boats here there and everywhere anchored up in their favorite haunts like always, and usually the first set in the morning is the best as the fish aren't scattered yet, but only if your in the right place at that givenb time, it's a crap shoot most of the time, but on certain tides with fish in the area it's usually a given that you'll get some decent sets. After the first few morning sets the fleet scatters somewhat, looking for jumpers and so on to set on, while some stay put and work the area their at all day long top save on fuel etc etc.

No way in hell would the fishermen be happy if they had to go at different times, first is best {usually} unless ALL the fleet is only alllowed one specific spot and you get the draw for the best tide {which is not always the flood either, some places where the tide backs up is best}. That would not work at all so the way it is is best, open a certain area, let them fish, nut have cameras showing each and every piece that goes in the fish hole, and every piece that goes over the side.

In all the years I seined {over twenty} I can say that when we fished for sockeye, we caught sockeye, the pink by catch was very small, and the same when we fished for pinks, thew sockeye by catch was also very small, as the runs basically determine what was there at the time. What people saw on TV was not a lot of by catch, even though a lot on here will not agree, it wasn't.

When seiners fish pink salmon they basically need a boat load to make a buck as they are only paid maybe 25 cents a pound as opposed to dollars a pound for sockeye.

When I fished, every sockeye that came aboard was a dollar in every mans pocket, and every pink that came aboard was a quarter, pretty hard to make a buck fishing pinks, but when you got 25,000 lbs of sockeye for the week then it was a 25,000 paycheck as we were getting a buck a pound back then and only now do they give the fisherman more per pound as they only give them so many times to fish, not a couple straight months like before. We'd fish out of Rupert for 5 weeks at the start of the season then come back down here and fish a good month and a half until it was time to fish for fall dogs {chum}. Now the licenses have all changed and that doesn't happen any more unless your boat has a double license and i don't even know if that's allowed anymore, ??

[TNAngler]

You get there early {usually a day or two} and anchor for position, if say Johnstone Straits is opened then you will have boats here there and everywhere anchored up in their favorite haunts like always, and usually the first set in the morning is the best as the fish aren't scattered yet, but only if your in the right place at that givenb time, it's a crap shoot most of the time, but on certain tides with fish in the area it's usually a given that you'll get some decent sets. After the first few morning sets the fleet scatters somewhat, looking for jumpers and so on to set on, while some stay put and work the area their at all day long top save on fuel etc etc.

No way in hell would the fishermen be happy if they had to go at different times, first is best {usually} unless ALL the fleet is only alllowed one specific spot and you get the draw for the best tide {which is not always the flood either, some places where the tide backs up is best}. That would not work at all so the way it is is best, open a certain area, let them fish, nut have cameras showing each and every piece that goes in the fish hole, and every piece that goes over the side.

In all the years I seined {over twenty} I can say that when we fished for sockeye, we caught sockeye, the pink by catch was very small, and the same when we fished for pinks, thew sockeye by catch was also very small, as the runs basically determine what was there at the time. What people saw on TV was not a lot of by catch, even though a lot on here will not agree, it wasn't.

When seiners fish pink salmon they basically need a boat load to make a buck as they are only paid maybe 25 cents a pound as opposed to dollars a pound for sockeye.

When I fished, every sockeye that came aboard was a dollar in every mans pocket, and every pink that came aboard was a quarter, pretty hard to make a buck fishing pinks, but when you got 25,000 lbs of sockeye for the week then it was a 25,000 paycheck as we were getting a buck a pound back then and only now do they give the fisherman more per pound as they only give them so many times to fish, not a couple straight months like before. We'd fish out of Rupert for 5 weeks at the start of the season then come back down here and fish a good month and a half until it was time to fish for fall dogs {chum}. Now the licenses have all changed and that doesn't happen any more unless your boat has a double license and i don't even know if that's allowed anymore, ??

They wouldn't have to go at different times.  It was just an option.  Heck, for gillnetters most of the time they made us fish at night which sucks big donkey privates.

Gillnetting we would catch a fair number of pinks on very heavy years but like you said, nothing compared to the number of sockeye caught.

[Bently]

A lot of gill netters i know love fishing at night, and i know lots. Sometimes the dog fish can be brutal though. Try navigating around 500 gillnet boats with their nets out in the dark fishing the Fraser when your on an 80 foot seiner coming back to town, aint fun !! Sometimes running over a guys net was inevitable, but thye took it with a grain of salt most of the time, we'd tell them our boat name and they'd just bill us for the damage as most had another net to fish.

[TNAngler]

A lot of gill netters i know love fishing at night, and i know lots. Sometimes the dog fish can be brutal though. Try navigating around 500 gillnet boats with their nets out in the dark fishing the Fraser when your on an 80 foot seiner coming back to town, aint fun !! Sometimes running over a guys net was inevitable, but thye took it with a grain of salt most of the time, we'd tell them our boat name and they'd just bill us for the damage as most had another net to fish.

We hated it.  Especially in the early 90s before we got out of the business.  The dog fish could be real brutal.  The hake or however you spell those slimy nasty @#%@#% can be almost worse.  Out by Pt Roberts in the 90s we were starting to get some bioluminecense in the water that made the nets quite visible.  You couldn't let it sit for more than like a half hour and have to wash it with a pressured hose every set.  It was miserable.

[Sandy]

Why can we not put a webcam on every deck of every commercial fishing boat?  Something only the DFO is able to watch.  Even if they are not monitored closely, the fact that there is a camera right there, recording what you do, will straighten out a ton of misdoings.

Caught without a camera or tampering with the camera and you lose your commercial license and pay a huge fine.  Camera can even have a GPS on it so they know where you are fishing and if you are legally able to do so.

been saying that for years, but viewable not only by DFO ,but also by a panel of observers, with authority to sanction wrongdoers.

[Sandy]

been saying that for years, but viewable not only by DFO ,but also by a panel of observers, with authority to sanction wrongdoers.

I also  feel the penalties should continue to the processers,
should not be hard to track,

licence # - sold to- who sold to - consumer!

[TNAngler]

been saying that for years, but viewable not only by DFO ,but also by a panel of observers, with authority to sanction wrongdoers.

DFO or a panel.  Someone with authority, or a couple groups with authority.

[norton]

Ban all net fishing.

[silver ghost]

Quote from: Sandy on August 21, 2013, 01:56:06 PM
been saying that for years, but viewable not only by DFO ,but also by a panel of observers, with authority to sanction wrongdoers.

DFO or a panel.  Someone with authority, or a couple groups with authority.

While I am not saying this is a bad idea... I'm curious to know how you guys think this will help the fishery... it's not like the commercial guys WANT to break the rules or harm by-catch species... if they had the choice they would love to not catch any at all, because at the end of the day it's more work for them to have to deal with the by-catch (revival box, release, record), which they are not getting paid for anyways. What would fining a skipper for accidentally having a couple pieces of closed species in his fish hold accomplish, especially when those fish were dead by the time they were brought on board anyways?

I have worked as an observer on several seine vessels so far this season, and although my presence may influence their actions in such that they are on their best behaviour when i am on board watching them, the culture and mentality among the fishermen is not as destructive as we/I had thought prior to starting this type of work. These guys are just collecting a paycheque, and they really don't want anything to stand in the way of it. There is a lot at stake if one chooses to fish illegally - despite the enforcement levels - and most guys I have met (both on the water and at the docks) fish as ethically as possible because they know full well their industry is very volatile, and will only last into the future if everyone co-operates.

[TNAngler]

While I am not saying this is a bad idea... I'm curious to know how you guys think this will help the fishery... it's not like the commercial guys WANT to break the rules or harm by-catch species... if they had the choice they would love to not catch any at all, because at the end of the day it's more work for them to have to deal with the by-catch (revival box, release, record), which they are not getting paid for anyways. What would fining a skipper for accidentally having a couple pieces of closed species in his fish hold accomplish, especially when those fish were dead by the time they were brought on board anyways?

I have worked as an observer on several seine vessels so far this season, and although my presence may influence their actions in such that they are on their best behaviour when i am on board watching them, the culture and mentality among the fishermen is not as destructive as we/I had thought prior to starting this type of work. These guys are just collecting a paycheque, and they really don't want anything to stand in the way of it. There is a lot at stake if one chooses to fish illegally - despite the enforcement levels - and most guys I have met (both on the water and at the docks) fish as ethically as possible because they know full well their industry is very volatile, and will only last into the future if everyone co-operates.

Most don't but it only takes a couple breaking the rules to 1 give the industry a bad name and 2 cause serious damage.  There are some that only do what they should when there are observers on board.  Cameras would make it so observers are on board every time.  I have met enough who only care about what they can get now or feel they are owed that it could be a real problem if they aren't supervised.

I understand on a gill netter how the fish can be dead when it is brought up but is it really that frequent on a seiner?  If the fish is dead, then the fish should be kept no matter the species because otherwise we are just feeding the crabs.  You get into all kinds of moral dilemas with this though so I understand why it is that they have to be put back.

[silver ghost]

Most don't but it only takes a couple breaking the rules to 1 give the industry a bad name and 2 cause serious damage.  There are some that only do what they should when there are observers on board.  Cameras would make it so observers are on board every time.  I have met enough who only care about what they can get now or feel they are owed that it could be a real problem if they aren't supervised.

I understand on a gill netter how the fish can be dead when it is brought up but is it really that frequent on a seiner?  If the fish is dead, then the fish should be kept no matter the species because otherwise we are just feeding the crabs.  You get into all kinds of moral dilemas with this though so I understand why it is that they have to be put back.

Yup, a lot of those types of attitudes in the industry. Especially the older guys. Agree with you RE: the moral dilemma. I'd say about 80% of the fish that were "released" from the seine vessels were either dead or going to die very soon based on the condition they were in and the time they had been out of the water for - considering scale loss, bleeding, being crushed by weight of other fish, etc. While it would make sense to keep the fish that were in fact dead, the line between 'dead' and 'alive' would most likely blur together to a point where fish would be dumped into the holds without being sorted whatsoever. The boys see the brailing and sorting as a waste of time, and if they were allowed to keep 'dead' by catch, then every piece of bycatch would be "dead" if you catch my drift... funny you should mention crabs as well, out by delta port when using the shallow nets, each set kills anywhere from 20 - 100 crabs...

In my own personal experience I found it interesting going from a casual angler, to a full time fishing guide, to an at-sea fishery observer in the past three months... it really put things into perspective.

Before doing this observing work I was aware of how all user groups love to point fingers - the sporties blame the commies and FN for the demise of salmon stocks, the FN blame the commercial guys, sporties and DFO... but what was interesting was hearing one of the commercial guys rant about how logging and the use of pesticides was to blame for the diminishing returns... of course, in addition to the usual, blaming DFO and FN for over harvesting/mismanaging.

It has always been my philosophy that, unless you are part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Unfortunately, the attitude among most people who fish to survive, to earn a living, or for a hobby choose to point the finger at other user groups to make them feel less responsible.

Anyways, sorry to stray off topic, I have a habit of doing that...

[TNAngler]

I know if the fish had to be dead before they could keep it, most would be "dead".  That is why they have to throw it back and good fish goes to waste so that perhaps some of the others that aren't quite dead have a shot.

I wonder if changing conditions wouldn't allow more fish to live.  For instance, make them fish with a shorter net.  Shorter net means fewer fish per set, less stress on the fish.  Of course they would have to get all new nets and stuff which would suck.  I just don't know that a great solution exists.  No matter what is done, someone feels like they are getting the shaft.  I guess the best advice is what my divorce attorney told me, "If either of you leaves happy, I haven't done a good job.  I have only done a good job when you both leave equally unhappy."  Any possible solution will probably make everybody equally unhappy.

[Easywater]

I wonder if changing conditions wouldn't allow more fish to live.  For instance, make them fish with a shorter net.  Shorter net means fewer fish per set, less stress on the fish. 

I recall seeing a commercial fishery limited to a 6000 fish set.
They can probably catch 10K to 12K in a large net but they were limited to 6K to allow time to sort out the Sockeye and other by-catch.

[silver ghost]

I recall seeing a commercial fishery limited to a 6000 fish set.
They can probably catch 10K to 12K in a large net but they were limited to 6K to allow time to sort out the Sockeye and other by-catch.

You are somewhat correct. DFO "requested" skippers to "try" and target sets of 4-6000 fish... That isn't really an issue because most of the sets I observed around deltaport were well less than 4k.

But if there were millions of fish stacked together, that 4-6k suggestion would be very difficult to do even if they wanted to... Although I don't have much experience on seine vessels, perhaps there is another way...