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Author Topic: More Problems At Fish Farms  (Read 41440 times)

chris gadsden

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Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #75 on: December 14, 2013, 07:55:18 PM »

Moosebreath, you might want to look for a new source of information.  Better yet, read the actual Cohen Final Report and related transcripts with exhibits for yourself.  Somehow Dr. Miller does not seem to agree with your source – neither does the data collected to date.  Here is some more information on Creative farmed Chinook.

DR. MILLER: And so I don't think that there's -- and there's no indication that what we're picking up as ISAV positives has any correlation with their jaundiced syndrome. There's no indication that it's causing disease, necessarily, in those fish, but we basically picked up a similar prevalence level and CT values that we see in wild migrating sockeye. Cohen Transcript Dec 15, 2011 page 53

MS. CALLAN:
26 Q: Now, your results were interesting because you didn't only have unhealthy fish testing positive for ISAV?

DR. MILLER: Yes, and I never suggested that ISAV was anything to do with this jaundice disease.

Q: Okay. And in fact, if we turn to provincial Tab 22, you'd agree that the positive ISAV PCR test results are as common in healthy fish as they are in sick fish?

DR. MILLER: Yes, I only saw this morning, but yes, again, I never came forward and suggested there was any relationship.
Cohen Transcript Dec 15, 2011 page 96
OK but......http://www.vancouversun.com/news/todays-paper/Secrecy+denial+coverup+norm+Ottawa/9287112/story.html

shuswapsteve

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Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #77 on: December 15, 2013, 04:03:39 PM »

Ok but....Ms Morton and her followers continuously misrepresent how virus testing works and keep misrepresenting what other scientists actually said.  The farmed Chinook Salmon from Creative is a perfect example of this.  Fish farm critics can say whatever they want, but the facts are the facts here: There is no evidence that what Dr. Miller found (in the ISA segment 7 test) is the cause of jaundice in farmed Chinook Salmon at Creative.  Dr. Miller even goes on record as saying there is no indication what she found has any correlation with jaundice syndrome.  If there is hard evidence that proves otherwise then let's see it.  The fact is that if you look through the Cohen Final Report, transcript and exhibits you won't find what supports the opinion that Creative farmed Chinook are dying from whatever Dr. Miller found.

Somehow farm critics who seem to rally behind whatever Dr. Miller says and does continuously misrepresent her work.  As I said before, farm critics cannot wave the flag of trying to protect science while at the same time doing their part to suppress and misrepresent the findings of science that may not subscribe to their views.  So, although I see your point about our current leadership back east, what further purpose does it serve to continuously make false claims which mislead the public?  Are your interests served well by being told false claims about Creative farmed Chinook.....or would you rather know the facts of the matter, even if they do not subscribe to your views of the industry, especially from the individuals directly involved who are apparently your go-to scientists (i.e. Dr. Miller)?
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troutbreath

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Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #78 on: December 15, 2013, 05:31:58 PM »

Ten words or less shteve. Please.
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Novabonker

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Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #79 on: December 15, 2013, 08:06:26 PM »

Ten words or less shteve. Please.


I'll try to help him out.

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Dave

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Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #80 on: December 15, 2013, 08:34:16 PM »

Steve made the right points, something that couldn't be done in ten words but you two are too entrenched and don't want to listen ... nothing new there though ;D
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troutbreath

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Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #81 on: December 15, 2013, 09:04:42 PM »

Five words or less Dave. :)
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Novabonker

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Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #82 on: December 16, 2013, 04:54:34 AM »

Steve made the right points, something that couldn't be done in ten words but you two are too entrenched and don't want to listen ... nothing new there though ;D

Listening is one thing. Believing? Well there ya go.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 04:56:20 AM by Novabonker »
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shuswapsteve

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Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #83 on: December 16, 2013, 09:43:34 PM »

Listening is one thing. Believing? Well there ya go.

I am not sure you actually listen or read what anyone says.  Here let me assist you this time:

« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 09:46:47 PM by shuswapsteve »
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shuswapsteve

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Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #84 on: December 16, 2013, 09:50:55 PM »

Ten words or less shteve. Please.

Avoidance and more deflection.  Thanks.
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troutbreath

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Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #85 on: December 16, 2013, 09:59:36 PM »

Avoidance and more deflection.  Thanks.

Whatever.........but congrats on the less than ten word guideline. 8)
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shuswapsteve

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Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #86 on: December 16, 2013, 10:06:42 PM »

Whatever.........but congrats on the less than ten word guideline. 8)

Congrats on being very predictable in your response.  :P
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Fisherbob

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salmonrook

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Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #88 on: December 17, 2013, 10:24:02 AM »

Ok but....Ms Morton and her followers continuously misrepresent how virus testing works and keep misrepresenting what other scientists actually said.  The farmed Chinook Salmon from Creative is a perfect example of this.  Fish farm critics can say whatever they want, but the facts are the facts here: There is no evidence that what Dr. Miller found (in the ISA segment 7 test) is the cause of jaundice in farmed Chinook Salmon at Creative.  Dr. Miller even goes on record as saying there is no indication what she found has any correlation with jaundice syndrome.  If there is hard evidence that proves otherwise then let's see it.  The fact is that if you look through the Cohen Final Report, transcript and exhibits you won't find what supports the opinion that Creative farmed Chinook are dying from whatever Dr. Miller found.

Somehow farm critics who seem to rally behind whatever Dr. Miller says and does continuously misrepresent her work.  As I said before, farm critics cannot wave the flag of trying to protect science while at the same time doing their part to suppress and misrepresent the findings of science that may not subscribe to their views.  So, although I see your point about our current leadership back east, what further purpose does it serve to continuously make false claims which mislead the public?  Are your interests served well by being told false claims about Creative farmed Chinook.....or would you rather know the facts of the matter, even if they do not subscribe to your views of the industry, especially from the individuals directly involved who are apparently your go-to scientists (i.e. Dr. Miller)?

Not sure who you are grouping in your 'followers'. I think alot of people do use info from many sources,and use it to make their point.That is their right to free speech.
 I read alot of the info re testing,etc,and it seems that Dr. Miller has nothing to lose in stating her facts as qualified researcher.In fact she was 1 of the scientists on staff by dfo that I think dfo muzzled when they didnt like her results.
 Creative salmon is ,I think a more sustainable way to produce salmon,and regardless of who approved the organic license,dont you think it makes them more accountable for environmental standards.Is that what everyone wants?
As for the jaundice,I think thats a red herring,this past year while I was fishing the Vedder,witnessed this in a pink salmon,He swam in front of me ,beat himself  to death on the rocks.Didnt think about it at the   at first.When I looked at him later ,very noticeable that he was yellow all over,even his flesh.Not being a scientist,could this have been jaundice in a pink salmon.Not to be alarmist but just raising the possibility that it can happen in all species.
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shuswapsteve

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Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #89 on: December 18, 2013, 11:18:02 PM »

Not sure who you are grouping in your 'followers'. I think alot of people do use info from many sources,and use it to make their point.That is their right to free speech.
 I read alot of the info re testing,etc,and it seems that Dr. Miller has nothing to lose in stating her facts as qualified researcher.In fact she was 1 of the scientists on staff by dfo that I think dfo muzzled when they didnt like her results.
 Creative salmon is ,I think a more sustainable way to produce salmon,and regardless of who approved the organic license,dont you think it makes them more accountable for environmental standards.Is that what everyone wants?
As for the jaundice,I think thats a red herring,this past year while I was fishing the Vedder,witnessed this in a pink salmon,He swam in front of me ,beat himself  to death on the rocks.Didnt think about it at the   at first.When I looked at him later ,very noticeable that he was yellow all over,even his flesh.Not being a scientist,could this have been jaundice in a pink salmon.Not to be alarmist but just raising the possibility that it can happen in all species.

Is anyone here being denied their right to free speech?  Is anyone here being denied using information from other sources?  In my opinion, those that are too uncomfortable with the responses they will receive after posting information expressing their opinion (or from others) on forums like this may want to reconsider it.  I don’t have a problem at all with people using information from other sources to make their point.  You are totally right about free speech (within limits of legality and the rules of this forum); however, it is my right (along with others) to respond to it if it is posted here.  Would you not agree?

As for Dr. Miller, I purposely posted her testimony in contrast to what was posted to show how some information out there on this topic is repeatedly masqueraded as facts.  She (as well as the other experts) is stating the facts of what she found and what she did not – it is in the Cohen Final Report and related material.  The problem is that some individuals refuse to acknowledge what Dr. Miller says when it does not agree with their opinion.  Salmonconfidential is great example of how much of what Dr. Miller said was edited out because it did not fit the conspiracy plot.  In my opinion that is a form of muzzling also.  As for “muzzling by dfo” that is not true because it was actually the Privy Council that was responsible – not the department.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/dfo-scientist-says-privy-council-silenced-her-1.987107
http://www.pco-bcp.gc.ca/index.asp?lang=eng

I agree with you that this jaundice is a bit of a red herring; however, I am all for future testing to see what the cause of this is if it is indeed a problem.  It is important to note that lack of evidence does not mean stop looking – it means that what has been obtained so far is insufficient to make any definite conclusions.  Saying that 25% of the farmed Chinook at Creative farms tested positive for ISAv (or ISAv-like) and implying that it is why salmon are turning up dead because of jaundice disease is quite a stretch supported by no hard data.  It has already been shown that fish that have jaundice do not have ISAv (Smith et al 2006; already presented previously).  It is also difficult to make that leap when the prevalence of what Dr. Miller found is similar in healthy fish as it is in sick fish – not to mention we are not even sure what Dr. Miller found actually causes disease or mortality in the first place.
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