Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Spawn Sack]

So I tied up some intruders today and had a bit of difficulty deciding what to use for the prop/umbrella at the bottom and top to help keep the long fibers (rea, ostrich, etc) poofed out. I'm just wondering what ya'll think is "best" and why. Looking back at my notes from some tying classes I've taken some of the instructors have said:

1- Polar bear underfur is best. Why? Apparently is does not absorb water so it provides maximum poof for the long fibers. My flies I tied with it look great, but I find the underfur a bit of a pain to work with, and you need to pull out the longer hairs to use just the fluff. and it seems like such a waste to toss the longer hairs! (I can't be bothered bagging and saving a few hairs, I'm not THAT cheap).

2- Artic fox is best. I'm not really sure why this one instructor loved it so much. Personaly I find it easier to work with and get a nice even dubbing loop compared to polar bear. However I'm not sure if it's better for not absorbing water, etc.

3- Seal dubbing is best. Another course I went to all butts were made with seal dubbing. I find it very easy to work with. Not sure how it compares performance wise to polar bear and artic fox.

In addition to these three I have seen some videos (Skagit master #1 in paticular) where the person used spun deer hair as a prop. I believe it was just on the top prop as, if I understand it correctly, one wants their intruder to have a "tear drop" profile with more material/profile at the head that the tail. I've used deer hair in muddler minnow style flies but never in an intruder.

Lastly, I have heard of guys just using polar chenile or palmer chenile as a prop/umbrella. This would certainly be the cheapest and quickest method, but IMO would not poof out the long fibers as well as the others.

I know this topic is getting pretty anal, however I am a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to fly tying (not saying I'm that s**t hot, but I aspire to be) so I like my flies to be as good/effective as possible.

They say with intruders their profile/ability to move water is important.

[SPEYMAN]

This will be a decision you will have to make. Do a search on u tube for intruders and you may find more answers.

[BNF861]

Play with different materials and see what you like best. I try to tie my intruders to provide a large silhouette, with the least material I can. This keeps it lighter and easier to cast, as well as looks big but still sinks fast.

I use polar bear for the props on my intruders. Its the best material you can use in my opinion. It doesn't absorb water, and does a great job propping up whatever material I use with it. I love the translucent appearance of natural polar bear, but also use it died various colours. I don't pick out the longer fibres, I spin the the underfur and longer fibres in a dubbing loop and palmer.

Arctic fox is decent and cheaper but not quite as good as PB. I have used deer hair and it works well but because it is buoyant, I would only use it on heavily weighted flies. Some people use dubbing balls, but I don't feel it does a very good job of propping up whatever you use after it. Polar chenille doesn't really prop up materials either but does make a nice body on some flies

[Spawn Sack]

SPEYMAN, ummm...yeah...thanks for that. I realize it is a decision I will have to make; unless I wake up one morning and leprechauns have tied up a bunch of intruders for me! I know for a fact that there are some very good tiers that frequent this site - and I'm sure someone knows more than I about polar bear vs artic fox vs seal dubbing and so on. I realize all will work as a prop/umbrella but  I am curious what some think is "best" and why. If you youtube "intruders" you will find videos on how to tie intruders of course. I dont really need that. I haven' t been able to find any specific info on this topic.

[Spawn Sack]

BNF861, thanks awesome info! All that makes sense. I'll compare some with artic fox vs polar bear in my fish tank.  I agree about the chenile and seal dubbing, the ones I tied with then dont seem to poof the long fibers out as well.

I want to buy a few new colors and will likely look for polar bear first and if they dont have the color I want then look for artic fox second.

[HOOK]

I use Arctic Fox almost exclusively for two reasons

1 - I refuse to pay those prices for good Polar Bear

2 - If your brush out ALL the underfur it will not hold water anymore than PB will. When you spin it leave some of the cut ends long sticking out the one side of the loop. Spin it, brush it out nicely and then wrap each wrap as tightly as possible against the previous wrap. If you do this correctly the hair will stand at 90 degrees to the shank/tube

before brushing it out


brushing it out


finished amount


placed in the loop (for even more prop make cut ends stick out longer)

[Spawn Sack]

Wow thanks HOOK, those are some awesome pics! And very vaid points. When I use the fox I'll be sure to brush out as much underfur as I can. Do you just pull it out with your fingers, or use a brush/comb?

I'll have to take another look at my artic fox. I sweat it is NOT as long as yours and it's more fluffy. It's actually artic fox TAIL if that makes a difference Yours seems to look a little more straw like when brused out, some similar looking to deer hair...no?

I'm going to pick up some materials tomorrow (p/b or fox, rea or ostrich, etc depending on prices and selection) when I'm in Abby and tie up a half dozen or so intruders in the eve

[HOOK]

In the second pick you can see a gold tool that looks like a little rake. This is a dubbing brush and I pinch the hair as hard as I can near the tips and brush out the cut tips end, go slowish so your not pulling out long hairs also, then once that's done I pinch the butt ends and brush out the tip side.

The clump of fox hair looks like way more than what I actually cut off the skin, I use my hackle picker (big needle looking thing) to separate about 1/8" wide bit of hair and cut the from the skin. It will poof out like in the pic, brush it out and your left with about half of what you cut off but its all long stiff guard hair

This stuff is also Fox tail, I always open the packages of most materials I'm going to buy so I can find the better packages. When I buy fox tail chunks I look for consistent hair length, long hair and even dye colour.

picking Marabou is the worst because its hard to find packages of blood quill (long stuff) with lots of thin stems. Thinner stemmed marabou flows nicer and isn't quite as fluffy

[Spawn Sack]

Thanks for the tips HOOK. I tied up a couple the other night. I'll throw up a few pics. I definitley find the fox tail much easier to work with than polar bear for making props. Seems like with my fox tail very little comes out of if I try to brush out the underfur. Like nothing really. I have a fine brush like yours. Maybe my foxtail is higher than usual grade I dunno, I bought it off April Vokey and she has good stuff.

Pic #1 is my "lady gaga intruder" I copied the recipe I got from spey pages. I made a few minor changes based on the materials I had but it's pretty close to the recipe I found.

#2 Is my fox tail in the loop before I spin it. I notice people seem to have more material sticking out on the left side of the thread before spinning. I really don't think it will make much of a diff once spun, picked/brushed out, palmered while pulling the material back with each wrap, then brushing back again towards the left again. Buy hey, if everyone does it it must have a purpose, so I've being doing that when I put my material in the thread.

#3 is my finished and brushed back prop. IMO a little too much material for the back...a little over dressed.

#4 is the finised fly. IMO turned out ok. A little overdressed overall. I did a pinch of ice dub after each prop Just tied down in the middle of the pinch, then the one half pulled under and tied off so it pretty mich covers 360 degrees. And yes I realize the tip still needs to be trimmed and melted.

[mbowers]

Have you tried just straight chenille?  It doesn't provide long fibers but if you make tight wraps it does provide a very firm shoulder for the other long fibers.  You can even make two or three layers of it for an extreme shoulder.  Those long dubbing loop hair fibers might be good in slow water but collapse themselves in faster water when fishing: you can't see the fly out there without a mask and snorkel.  

[Spawn Sack]

mbowers, thanks for that tip. No I've never tried just straight chenile, but I'll definitley keep it in mind. I would like to get one of those tanks especially made for testing out flies. Not sure what they're called. I've seen them at two tying classes I've been tow. Basically looks like a small fish tank but there is a pipe inside with moving water. You put the fly in that tube (connected by a piece of line) and the moving water simulates what the fly would look like in moving water under tension.

HOOK, if the pics above I notice you have some materials down before you wrap on your spun fox. What are they and why do you use them? I'm guessing the one material is natural guinea, and the two others are dubbing just twisted on the thread and wrapped on. I dont really get what their purpose is. Does the fox need more of an "umbrella." And with the dubbing, I'm guessing it's just something for the fish to key in on (ie bite at).

I've been watching some utube videos on intruder tying and it seems a lot of guys do a dubbing ball (just twisted on thread, not dubbing loop) before they do their prob (fox or whatever), I don't really get why. In the few intruder tying classes I've gone to we started with the prop as the first thing on the shank/tube.

[HOOK]

Your flies look really good, especially the second one. That doesn't look over dressed at all.

In my pics the fly is orange flat braid, purple chenille body with natural guinea wrapped as a hackle and then 2 turns as a collar. The guinea is placed there to hold up the fox so the first couple wraps don't just collapse against the shank/tube as you may have noticed when you wrapped yours. dubbing balls made from whatever are always a good idea before using AF as a prop, the ball doesn't need to be large at all, just make sure your first wraps are tight against it and every consecutive wrap is tight against the one before it.

straight chenille does work well for props but the materials will collapse around them because there isn't enough body to hold everything up. That being said I tend to use chenille balls on my rear posts and fox in the front. I don't like my rear post being as large as the front one, flies swim better this way also. I also usually don't tie a lot of long flowing stuff into the rear because it has a tendency to foul the trailer hook, even with tubes.

every material has a certain place depending on what your fly design is. remember these types of flies are constructed not just slapped onto a hook, all willy nilly. (example - I'm designing a mouse tube pattern for bull trout, been changing it constantly in my head trying to get it just perfect on how it will look, swim, float......etc) (This mouse fly may also be adapted to fish steelhead top water as well) 

When you put your hair in your loop make sure to spread it evenly. make sure to also close the loop on the shank/tube side, pinch the thread just below the hair on the spinner side and then spin the spinner while pinching tightly, once your happy with how spun the thread is pull towards yourself and let go and it will all spin. This is the best technique I have learned to prevent materials from "creeping up" the loop towards your shank/tube as you spin it


PS - if you go to the blog there is a full step by step instruction for the pics I shared here.

PPS - make sure to have some P&P bunnies on you at all times 

keep up the good work

[Spawn Sack]

Thanks HOOK I checked out your P&P bunny fly on your blog - I like it! Nice and simple to tie too which is always a bonus. With the dubbing at the head of the fly, I assume you are just twisting it on the thread, then wrapping it on? Is there any real "difference" (aside from the time savings) between doing it this way compared to making a dubbing loop, spinning it, then wrapping it? I find sometimes when trying to twist dubbing on the thread it doesn't go on very well, and sometimes starts to fall off the thread when I'm wrapping it on the hook I've tried applying a very light coat of wax (low tack swax) to the thread before twisting the dubbing on and it seems to help. On the videos I watch (Sport Fishing on the Fly, etc) they never use wax and the dubbing goes on and stays on the thread so easily...wtf? Likely just a dexterity issue I need to sort out with practice. Normally when using dubbing for leech bodies, etc., I always use a dubbing loop. I'm not sure if the twisting on the thread method is just for time savings, or if it has any other benifets over the d/l...

What do you think about making a collar of guinea or schlappen on this fly instead of dubbing? Do you think it would just collapse and do nothing when swung under tension? I like schlappen a lot on jig collars, however I realize the way they are fished is completely different. Thanks again

[HOOK]

Thanks HOOK I checked out your P&P bunny fly on your blog - I like it! Nice and simple to tie too which is always a bonus. With the dubbing at the head of the fly, I assume you are just twisting it on the thread, then wrapping it on? Is there any real "difference" (aside from the time savings) between doing it this way compared to making a dubbing loop, spinning it, then wrapping it? I find sometimes when trying to twist dubbing on the thread it doesn't go on very well, and sometimes starts to fall off the thread when I'm wrapping it on the hook I've tried applying a very light coat of wax (low tack swax) to the thread before twisting the dubbing on and it seems to help. On the videos I watch (Sport Fishing on the Fly, etc) they never use wax and the dubbing goes on and stays on the thread so easily...wtf? Likely just a dexterity issue I need to sort out with practice. Normally when using dubbing for leech bodies, etc., I always use a dubbing loop. I'm not sure if the twisting on the thread method is just for time savings, or if it has any other benifets over the d/l...

What do you think about making a collar of guinea or schlappen on this fly instead of dubbing? Do you think it would just collapse and do nothing when swung under tension? I like schlappen a lot on jig collars, however I realize the way they are fished is completely different. Thanks again

With the little bunny leeches I normally just twist it onto the thread which to be honest takes me longer than a d/l would, I twist it on because its easier to brush it out longer, when spun its pretty tight and doesn't brush out as well. The less you twist onto the thread the better and easier, just lay the wraps one over the other but slightly working forward with each wrap. This helps to hold it from all pulling free. When you see people do "dubbed leeches" they are almost exclusively done with dubbing loops, it adds to the strength of the fly. Some even use wire to make their loops

you could use a feather collar and I have used schlappen before but there really is no need with this type of fly. I only add in the dubbing to hide the hideous looking thread base of tying down the rabbit and all the flashabou. Makes the fly look "cleaner" and the added bonus is that you can change the entire look of the fly using different coloured dubbing. I will use coloured beads with matching or contrasting dubbing (ex. chartreuse bead with orange dubbing on a dark pattern)

You have seen a lot of Intruder type flies in the swim tanks in the tying classes you attended, have you not ?
try to think back to how each separate material moves when under tension of the current.
You asked about guinea and schlappen specifically, guinea is fairly stiff and does not swim in current much. Schlappen however is softer and will swim a little bit with the current, it will also pulsate as you lose/gain tension (especially so if you buy the Select schlappen which is even longer fibred)

another material you can use which is very similar to Arctic Fox for a fraction the price is Select Craft Fur. You don't need to brush out the "underfur" but just pull out a little bit with your fingers and then spin and wrap it the same as fox. This stuff is extremely cheap and moves very well in the current. 

Craft Fur Intruder swimming, excuse my poor video skills. Trying to video flies on your own is a PITA



the fly itself