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[clarkii]

Bait ban is the biggest joke in this fishery next to the rape of salmon by natives.  We already are allowed only single barbless hooks which minimize injury to fish but to add a bait ban to an already difficult river to fish correctly for salmon is pathetic.  With the water vis the way it is your lucky to get the bites you do get and so why not reduce hook size as well?  Basically the bait ban is a pretend band aid to a much bigger problem from native and commercial over fishing making it more difficult to the law abiding citizens who choose to fish for fish the way it was supposed to be.  You go to any other province or state and watch how they manage their fishery cause this ones a joke.  Columbia river is a prime example of a well managed fishery and i'm talking US side.

And for the record i fish both Gear and Fly.

Congratulations for doing both, and having your own opinion.

But If I were to agree with that opinion, then we'd both be wrong.

But anyway, fish do not swallow lures and flies as much as bait due to the nature of the fishing technique and also them not being food. 

Flies are often fished with the angler in direct contact with the line, but also the different texture allows fish to spit hooks easily (why hooksets need to be decently quick).  That is the main reason why fish do not just swallow the smaller nymphs, and chironomids when lake fishing under an indicator.  Dry flies are often sipped or struck at, so they also do not get deep hooked.

Lures are similar as they are struck at, but due to them being retrieved often they prevent deep hooking (however hook size can cause mortality through other injuries).

I have seen a fish bleed after it took a fly, the fish in question happened to take a booby I was using.  The issue here was the fish was hooked in the tongue...  Boobies and blobs are flies known for deep hooking, and those of us that fish them have to fish them on a fast retrieve in order to be ethical.  They get deep hooked due to the surface area and hydrodynamics when a fish sucks them in.

[Every Day]

Clarkii, you're actually the one who is wrong to be quite honest.

Firstly, I happen to know you only fly fish, right at that point you are biased and can't actually make an assumption on any other type of gear.

I have now bait fished and fly fished for 8 years for salmon and steelhead (which is what this discussion is about - not trout). I have spoon fished heavily now going on my 3rd year. I can tell you in 8 years, I can count on one hand the number of salmon and steelhead bleeders I've had on bait. Compare this to my first season dry fly fishing summer steel last year where 2 of my first 3 fish piped it (down past the tongue) and were bleeders (kind of contrary to your statement of them not getting hooked deep by dries?). You also talk of lures which you never use, and I can tell you, lures are the worst for having bleeders that swallow it. Thats why I invented the trailer hook method on braid. It had nothing to do with the size of the hook in most cases, they were just taking it down to the gill rakers on the swing.

Before you start throwing around assumptions, you have to actually have experience in each method. What you read isn't what always happens on the water. The only thing that a bait ban does, and why I agree with then at times, is that bait ban prevents multiple recaptures of fish.

[FlyFishin Magician]

Congratulations for doing both, and having your own opinion.

But If I were to agree with that opinion, then we'd both be wrong.

But anyway, fish do not swallow lures and flies as much as bait due to the nature of the fishing technique and also them not being food. 

Flies are often fished with the angler in direct contact with the line, but also the different texture allows fish to spit hooks easily (why hooksets need to be decently quick).  That is the main reason why fish do not just swallow the smaller nymphs, and chironomids when lake fishing under an indicator.  Dry flies are often sipped or struck at, so they also do not get deep hooked.

Lures are similar as they are struck at, but due to them being retrieved often they prevent deep hooking (however hook size can cause mortality through other injuries).

I have seen a fish bleed after it took a fly, the fish in question happened to take a booby I was using.  The issue here was the fish was hooked in the tongue...  Boobies and blobs are flies known for deep hooking, and those of us that fish them have to fish them on a fast retrieve in order to be ethical.  They get deep hooked due to the surface area and hydrodynamics when a fish sucks them in.

I'm also inclined to agree with Every Day.  You state that "fish do not swallow lures and flies as much as bait due to the nature of the fishing technique and also them not being food".  I can't speak about lures since I don't use them much.  But if we're talking about trout (which you are since you mentioned chironomids), they do and can swallow flies - particularly leech patterns.  In fact, the flies we use imitate the food source.  The reason they don't swallow chironomids is because they don't aggressively strike them like they do leeches.  I agree with you about constant control of the line and the texture of the fly being different.  Anyway, my point here is that I have had trout hooked deep on leech patterns.

As for bait, I can count on one hand the number of coho that swallowed my roe.  Coho are very finicky, and the roe take is often similar to indicator fishing.  Can they swallow the bait from time to time? Of course they can.  However, I found this to be uncommon in my experience.  I also find that the jacks are more likely to be hooked deeper than the adults.  Steelhead?  I've never had one swallow my roe.  Then again, I don't use roe as much for steelhead as I do for coho.

And to think that sport fishers using bait even comes close to a fraction of the impact of the commercial and FN nets is, quite frankly, ridiculous.  It's just easier to enforce.  So I don't believe chromeo to be incorrect on that point either.

Just my 50 cents worth...

[clarkii]

I see what happens with bait almost every day in the summer,

Yes with unexperienced fishers, on small fish with small hooks and bait.

Yet moving to circle hooks, and flies rarely hook deeply.

Even when those angling are inexperienced.

I havent plugged minitab yet, but that trend has certainly been noticed.


And it seems to be accurate to these guys.
http://cpwspprod.state.co.us/Documents/Research/Aquatic/pdf/Publications/PostreleaseHookingMortality1996.pdf

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1577/1548-8675(1996)016%3C0348%3AHMOBCR%3E2.3.CO%3B2#.VASXfPldWGc
This one is only the abstract, due to not being able to get the article but it is still helpful.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1577/1548-8675(1993)013%3C0337%3AMOACCT%3E2.3.CO%3B2#.VASYXvldWGc
Here is one on Coastal Cutties, and talks about worm baited hooks vs spinner treatments (again abstract only)

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10641269409388555?src=recsys#.VASY3_ldWGc
again the abstract, but talks about bait on single hooks doing more damage then bait on treble.   

[RalphH]

Bait ban is the biggest joke in this fishery next to the rape of salmon by natives.  We already are allowed only single barbless hooks which minimize injury to fish but to add a bait ban to an already difficult river to fish correctly for salmon is pathetic. 

Almost all studies show that barbless vs barbed makes very little difference in mortality rates. Where fish are likely to swallow a baited hook then mortality rates after release will be high - as high as 50% and it doesn't matter if the hooked is barbed or not

[Every Day]

I see what happens with bait almost every day in the summer,

Yes with unexperienced fishers, on small fish with small hooks and bait.

Yet moving to circle hooks, and flies rarely hook deeply.

Even when those angling are inexperienced.

I havent plugged minitab yet, but that trend has certainly been noticed.

You see what happens with bait every summer, on a pond with 2000 rainbows that are not fed properly, and will engulf a dandelion that hits the surface. Of course they are going to swallow an egg that a kid lets them swim around with for 2 minutes. They even completely swallow the plastic unscented eggs I gave the kids, didn't matter if it was bait or not.

You are once again comparing trout to salmon and steelhead. It can't be done, it's a different type of fishing and different fish that behave differently. If you're trying to protect an endangered trout, then by all means, have a bait ban as it will definitely save a few. As for steelhead and salmon, it won't save any based on mortality due to deep hooking's from what I've experienced over the past 8 years. As I said before, it only works if you are trying to prevent the same fish from being hooked multiple times over and over (which most likely wouldn't be an issue in the Fraser).

All your articles... once again, trout fishing. I'd love to see one on salmon and steelhead. I know tonnes of guys that only fish bait, and they rarely if ever gut hook a fish. I fish spoons, and before I switched to trailers, I easily severely injured 1 out of every 10 or more. Flies/jigs (without any bait tipping), I probably injure 1 out of every 20 (even with small hooks, quick hook sets), bait, I'd honestly say my bleeder count numbers 1 in 250. These numbers aren't biased because I use bait either, anyone that knows me, knows that I fish spoons and flies 90% of the time and rarely actually bait fish. I'm just tired of the "holier than thou" fly fisherman always attacking anyone that fishes spoons and bait, always saying their flies injure less fish... it's not true.

Fly deep hookings:

Unscented roe flies down the pipe on a summer run, and a couple winters from this past year year






Nearly 3 inch long dry fly with just the .5 inch head stocking out... thank goodness it was a size 4 trailer hook rather than the 1/0 monsters I see most guys use


Bottom of the mouth instead of the top and this would have been a bleeder for sure


Some coho on a number of different flies:

[firstlight]

Those fish are sure hooked deep Everyday.
I have caught hundreds of Steelhead and I don't think more than two of them were ever hooked that deep and I use a lot of egg sacs,pink worms and blades.
They are usually hooked in the upper lip.

[nosey]

I've never had a problem with fish too deeply hooked while float fishing, bottom fishing for trout I've seen them swallow it quite a few times, ( I don't do that anymore) for steelhead in a river like the Thomson where everyone that is fishing with bait is float fishing, the bait ban is just a joke, probably put there by people that are incredably ill informed.

[Rodney]

the bait ban is just a joke, probably put there by people that are incredably ill informed.

Must be. It appears we have a several individuals who are more than qualified to apply for the Region 2 resource manager position at Fisheries and Oceans Canada. I urge you to apply when the openings are posted in the future.

[Every Day]

for steelhead in a river like the Thomson where everyone that is fishing with bait is float fishing, the bait ban is just a joke, probably put there by people that are incredably ill informed.

This is where I disagree...

As I said previously, while bait bans have no use as far as mortality for deep hooking goes for salmon and steelhead (as far as I can see compared to other methods from past experience), it DOES help with mortality from repeat captures. Before this year I had never fished at the mouth of the Nicola before, because it was too busy. I went there for the first time this past year, and I actually found it kind of disgusting to be honest. There were at least 20 people on our side, 15 on the other, all pounding the heck out of it with roe. Those fish are being hooked over and over again. Do you really think they'll all have the same success pounding it with artificials or jigs under a float? Doubt it.

Bait ban on Thompson = good thing, stops multiple repeat captures of fish where they are stacking up. Add in that wonderful hook restriction and you stop the idiots from using 2/0 classic streamer hooks that do a lot of damage, and also spoon hooks that do a tonne of damage.

Bait ban in Fraser = useless, because the fish might take it deep 1% of the time, and they are moving and not being pounded by bait over and over again.

[RalphH]

You are once again comparing trout to salmon and steelhead. It can't be done, it's a different type of fishing and different fish that behave differently. If you're trying to protect an endangered trout, then by all means, have a bait ban as it will definitely save a few. As for steelhead and salmon, it won't save any based on mortality due to deep hooking's from what I've experienced over the past 8 years. As I said before, it only works if you are trying to prevent the same fish from being hooked multiple times over and over (which most likely wouldn't be an issue in the Fraser).

Great photos though with the exception of the one in the gills none are particularly deep or potentially fatal. The worst situation is where the hook has been taken past the throat sphincter and the fish is gut hooked. Gill hooking or under the tongue when the point pierces the major artery there. You're right that what studies have been done indicate not a big difference for float presented bait vs fly, though fly is quite a bit lower the mortality rate over all is very low for both. Fly fishing streamers for trout has slightly higher mortality than most artificials (spoons and spinners). Bait often does hook considerably more fish and so will produce higher mortality in catch and release fisheries. The one good reason it's not allowed in most if not all wild summer run streams in BC. In the Fraser coho were traditionally caught bar fishing with roe where gut hooking was about double the rate of artificials. That reg is clearly aimed at that.

[skaha]

--an issue is that general rules don't work in every situation.
--You all have valid points about when bait or hook size or location are an issue or are not.

--For example if you could have no bait fishing in pools or where fish are stacking... this would reduce multiple hook ups. This is the kind of thing that fishers do on their own without regulation if they are truely interested in the fishery.
--If I am using larger sywash hooks lake trolling for large trout and I start getting into an area where I am hooking small kokanee (it usually kills them) I stop fishing or change the gear or method.

--I fish all methods where appropriate. It is very difficult to make up enough rules (not even thinking enforcement) to cover every situation. The ministry has in the last few years been amending many of the regs trying to get them as simple as makes sense. For the most part I agree with this. We also have to take responsibility to educate ourselves and others.

--For the most part it is the concentration of the fishers in specific areas that is the main problem.
--The example given... a bunch of bait fishers at the mouth of the Nicola...multiple hook ups of same fish. I fished that area in the early 70's... many days of the year there was no one else fishing that pool even though it was well known.

--We have similar situation on the Kettle river where I like to fly fish with dry fly.  During low water and high water temps the fish concentrate in a few deep pools (as do the fishers). We used to not fish those areas when these conditions occured... however enough people still fished them. Thus regulations had to be put in place to reduce fishing pressure. The weather and water temp plus other factors.. do not occure on the exact same date every year. So one could shut down the river at the earliest time these conditions have occured. This of course would result in many years when the river would be closed to fishing when the contidions did not require it to be closed. This leads to frustratrion at the least and poaching at the worst.
--The regs are not finalized but some compromise and a working panel of local experts and just plain old fishers should be able to fine tune the reg over time.

--It may happen that like hunting some areas... if we intend to keep them open will have to become limited entry. In part that is accomplised in fishing with regulations like on the Shuswap with yearly quotas as well as size limits.