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[BananasQ]

All the double knot system I do is, is a double granny knot. The key with my system is that the second granny knot passes through the first one. So... you tie the first granny knot, then do another granny knot right over top of the second one, passing the tag end of the second granny not through the hole that the first granny knot forms.

The double granny knot as you describe (one above another) has pulled out on me before. It also doesn't seem to ride as nicely in the water in that form. You could always try pulling hard and sliding the knots up against each other, (this will happen under a lot of load anyway) to try and offset the way it rides.

For the knot I have been using the surgeons end loop http://www.netknots.com/fishing_knots/surgeons-end-loop/ I am not sure if this is what you have described, but in my stress tests using this the component that has failed was not the knot, but the hook snapping (Matzuo size 1 Octopus sickle) and that took a lot of load.

[clujalolo]

so finally got a chance to rig some of these up.  I bought some 3/8 spoons as well, (by accident) I didnt feel like returning them so i said ill try to figure a way to use them. I was able to pass the knot through the hole on the spoon.

the easiest way is to make sure the knot is nice and neat making it the smallest possible, DONT cut the tag ends, feed the tag ends through the hole of the spoon thus using the tag ends to pull the knot through. I only had one that i had difficulty pulling through but that was in part because my knot was a little bulky when pulled tight but my others slid right through. Couldn't notice any damage to the knot but I'll be testing these out Monday or Tuesday depending on how work goes.

One question on the knots. when I form the second granny knot, I was passing my tag ends through BOTH loops, kinda like having the loops on top of each other and just feeding the tag ends through both loops. Not sure if you were doing it JUST through the FIRST loop and avoiding the second loop.

[Every Day]

so finally got a chance to rig some of these up.  I bought some 3/8 spoons as well, (by accident) I didnt feel like returning them so i said ill try to figure a way to use them. I was able to pass the knot through the hole on the spoon.

I should have corrected that on there, as I have been able to pass the knot through most 3/8 spoons as well. I believe the one batch of 3/8 spoons I had either had a smaller hole, or there was build up of the lacquer on the bottom hole. If it's just a build up of lacquer on the hole, I have just used my pocket knife to poke it out, and then the knots will pass through. Great hook rigging method for trout as they don't get mutilated by it, especially if you drop to a size 4 hook.

One question on the knots. when I form the second granny knot, I was passing my tag ends through BOTH loops, kinda like having the loops on top of each other and just feeding the tag ends through both loops. Not sure if you were doing it JUST through the FIRST loop and avoiding the second loop.

Go through both loops.

[clujalolo]

Ok yeh thats what I was doing going through both loops...We'll  see if this will get me  into my first steelhead tomorrow. 

[HOOK]

Dan, you ever try just using a double surgeons knot ?

I did a bunch up for my son and I to use over the Easter weekend while camping in Chilliwack with friends. I had some 20lb braid on hand and I could not for the life of me break it using a double surgeons but I did straighten out a #2 owner. I think it'll hold plenty enough for any fish 


Best part is the thin 20lb braid fits through the lure hole easily (might even be 25lb actually)

[Every Day]

Dan, you ever try just using a double surgeons knot ?

I did a bunch up for my son and I to use over the Easter weekend while camping in Chilliwack with friends. I had some 20lb braid on hand and I could not for the life of me break it using a double surgeons but I did straighten out a #2 owner. I think it'll hold plenty enough for any fish 


Best part is the thin 20lb braid fits through the lure hole easily (might even be 25lb actually)

I don't see the double surgeon's nots being an issue, it's almost the same knot for the most part.

I tried this method for approximately a year and a half before finally publishing/posting it. I wanted to make sure I had bugs sorted out, and that it would work well, and do the things I said it did.

I tried braid, of all types and sizes. Plain and simple it didn't work (up to 55 pound braid). I cringe when I see people posting on the threads I've made that they are going to try it with braid. The braid gets sawed through by the bottom of the spoon very quickly. It almost always resulted in lost fish. The braid was also thin enough that it pulled through the gap in the eye of the hook and we would occasionally lose hooks and just come back with the braid loop.

For the best results with this method, stick to what I put on-line. You can alter the knots as you like if you think they will hold. I tried a few, and settled on this one as I feel confident with it after it's never pulled out. If you play around with the braid/dacron, you run the real risk of losing fish. I've had a few people now state in threads/posts that "this method doesn't work because my braid breaks." The 30 lb dacron won't break, and if it's about to (this has only happened after a dozen or so fish), you can physically see it fraying all over the place and change it out. The 30 lb dacron costs next to nothing - better safe than sorry IMO.

[Fish or cut bait.]

Totally agree Dan,
Just like your leader.
If you question it change it!

Don't need to squeeze every cent out of your terminal tackle.
Whether it be hooks and roe bags or anything else.

Hooks only stay sharp for so long and leader and knots get stressed as well.

[Snagly]

 : I've finally bought a new scale, the old Chantillion having expired after 20 years and maybe 10,000 test knots. For the life of me, I can't get the Dacron loop to break at more than 12-13lbs. OK, that's not strictly true. If I do a loop-to-loop with two split rings, I've had the double-overhand knot (tied as explained above) break at up to 27lbs. But when looped through a spoon-hole (RandB plus three other no-name wobbler brands), the line breaks (or cuts) at 12-13lbs pull. The knots aren't pulling out and the breaks are all just below the doubled knot where the edge of the spoon cuts (abrades) through. I'm using slow pull, not a jerk.

Now that's not a disaster by any stretch of the imagination. I fish old baitcasters that don't put more than 5lbs of drag out even if locked tight. With my thumb on the spool and a big spring headed downstream maybe I can goose the number to 10lbs before my blistered thumb comes off the spool. And with 15lb Chameleon being my leader of choice, there's certainly some appeal to saving a few bucks when you're snagged and pulling the Dacron loop till it breaks before the leader loop knot. That's a $$$ savings worth quite a lot over the course of a season. So I doubt that even a fresh fish is going to break off in that fashion. But still . . . 12-13lbs vs. a 30lb rated strength is not doing very well.

But I have this nagging doubt that I'm tying the knots wrong. Or maybe the Cabela's Prestige 30bl fluoro yellow Dacron I'm using isn't the right brand. So if someone on the board could test a couple of their loop breaking strengths using a scale and real spoon, then I'd be very interested in seeing the results.

Thanks in advance!

[Snagly]

In desperation I rolled the knots on the loops in Aquaseal and let it dry overnight. This a.m. I tested 3 at random: I stopped pulling at 20+ lbs on the first two, and the third one broke right at 20lbs. So I suspect that the problem was that the waxed Dacron was slipping a little, making it abrade more readily.

I'll do more tests tonight, but I think that a dab of contact cement, Goop or Aquaseal could be the ticket.

[Every Day]

Interesting find!

I have noticed that on the odd occasion, I get some abrasion near the spoon attachment. This rarely results in lost fish for me, and only happens when I've become lazy and keep the same hook on for say more than 5 fish. I've never worried about it. We have landed a heck of a lot of good fish 16+ this year, without breaking any braided loops off (as I said - with exception to when we got lazy on some HUGE fish # days and stopped changing frayed connections after multiple fish).

It's interesting you were talking about savings via the loop breaking - I can tell you I hoped for it (even "popping" the rod gently to try and get a sawing action), but it doesn't work. I have yet to break off a trailer set up on a spoon on a snag, no matter how much I pop it or try different angles, etc. The only thing I have done is bent the occasional hook out when I've only say hooked the point on a stick/log and can leverage and pull the point outwards.

Cool that you fixed the problem though with a dab of goo.

[RalphH]

In desperation I rolled the knots on the loops in Aquaseal and let it dry overnight. This a.m. I tested 3 at random: I stopped pulling at 20+ lbs on the first two, and the third one broke right at 20lbs. So I suspect that the problem was that the waxed Dacron was slipping a little, making it abrade more readily.

I'll do more tests tonight, but I think that a dab of contact cement, Goop or Aquaseal could be the ticket.

I just tried making this loop with 2 overhand knots tightened then seated with super glue - no need to let it dry overnight. The line broke around the hook loop indicating the strength of the 2 glued knots exceeds the 30lb test of the dacron - but I'd expect that given the knot is tied in doubled line. Without the glue I could break the knot at a much lower strain which is consistent with what you've found.

[Snagly]

Hadn't thought of superglue. Very good suggestion, Ralph. This is easier to work with, esp. if you keep Aquaseal in the freezer as I do (to keep an opened tube from hardening on the shelf as happens otherwise). Of course, you now have to worry about gluing your fingers together . . . or a spoon body to the wife's coffee table . . . 

I confirm that each of the three batches of loops dabbed in Aquaseal has a breaking strength exceeding 20lbs.

[clujalolo]

As i posted a little while ago i rigged some of these up using the exact method. Tried them out on my first trip. Empty handed. Today was my 2nd time out and hooked and landed a 13-15lb buck. Colored but he still smashed the spoon. I saw the fish enter the pool and within 30 secs took the spoon. I fished this under a float as all i had with me was the center pin. Hook was nicely placed in the corner of the mouth. Was lodged in there pretty good. Had no worries of breaking at all.

Thanks everyday, you helped me land my first steelhead...ever. I had a pretty big grin on my face.

[Fish Assassin]

What's the point of applying Aquaseal or crazy glue if the source of the break isn't the knot ?

[Snagly]

The line is fraying and then breaking "at" the knot, which is to say that immediately below the knot(s). So the knots are intact, but there line is broken off flush with the knot. Technically, I don't think that the knot is breaking, but that the line is breaking at the knot.

Rolling the knot in Aquaseal somehow helps increase the breaking strength of the knot/ the line terminating into the knot. Maybe it makes for a stronger knot, or perhaps what's happening is that the Aquaseal coating on the line is reducing abrasion. Either explanation is fine by me.