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[dereke]

--A friend did some..what we call... trophy hunting while living in Africa.
--He used guides from a village near where he lived. Basically the whole village was supported by the legal hunts.
--All of the meat went to the village...except for a ceremonial meal. He also was able to purchase tanned hide...again prepared by the village.
--They also pay a game enhancement fee that goes to the protection of habitat. This allows villagers to purchase alternate fuel. If they don''t get this they go out and cut down and burn anything that is available.

--His justification being that if he did not pay to hunt the animal... the villagers would still have to kill it for their own food... plus cut down trees and vegitation in the area to live. By paying them for a legal hunt the animal gave much needed value added revenue that was kept and used in the local area.

Skaha is bang on. Don't take any of the BS by the media as gospel. There is a lot of misinformation out there about many of the hunts that go on and as weird as it is actually protects some of the population of these animals. As far as this particular case maybe he is a piece of garbage and there are illegalities to how it all went down but I will reserve judgment until the witch hunt is over and the dust settles.

[DragonSpeed]

--A friend did some..what we call... trophy hunting while living in Africa.
--He used guides from a village near where he lived. Basically the whole village was supported by the legal hunts.
--All of the meat went to the village...except for a ceremonial meal. He also was able to purchase tanned hide...again prepared by the village.
--They also pay a game enhancement fee that goes to the protection of habitat. This allows villagers to purchase alternate fuel. If they don''t get this they go out and cut down and burn anything that is available.

--His justification being that if he did not pay to hunt the animal... the villagers would still have to kill it for their own food... plus cut down trees and vegitation in the area to live. By paying them for a legal hunt the animal gave much needed value added revenue that was kept and used in the local area.

Or, they could participate in the sustainable industry of safari tourism where many hundreds of people can see the same animals over and over.  This would bring in more money in the long run, resulting in better living conditions for all.

Kenya is an example of how well that is working, so the "bringing in trophy killers is GOOD for the animals" argument is a bit of a straw man.

[dennyman]

Will wait till all the facts come out. But I have a question. What about Jericho?
The reason I raise that question is that there were initial report that the sibling of Cecil had also been killed by a hunter this week. This whole thing has become a media circus.
By the way Jericho is still alive. This lion also wears a collar and his movement has been tracked by researchers this week.

[zacrum]

If you read into it more they know Cecils  brother was killed during a pride fight for land

[salmonsturgeontrout]

The outrage is not  because he was a lion, lions are killed legally often in Africa. There are many reasons people are outraged.
One BIG reason the world is outraged is that this was not an every day lion. This Lion was tagged with a radio transmitter collar around his neck and used for research purposes to track movements, range, among other important conservation data and has been tracked since 2008 as part of the Wildlife Conservation Research Unit. Any good hunter knows you do not kill any animal with a collar, the animals have these for a reason. I am not a hunter myself but accidentally killing a collared animal MAY happen, I have no idea myself,  but hiding it instead of telling the authorities shows the type of people the hunter/guides are...unethical.
As for Cecil being just another lion, killing a male lion has shown to have grave consequences for the pride, and they are now at the mercy of rival prides, which may very well kill off the entire Cecil pride to eliminate competition/gain territory. Yes,this type of situation may happen in the wild during fights between rival lions or because of legal hunts but this particular case is caused by poaching.
This was not a legal hunt, it was baited out of a nationally protected park. It does not matter if you agree or disagree with trophy hunting. If it is legal it is legal. However; if you bait a grizzly bear out of a national park in Canada there would be severe punishment , possibly imprisonment and major fines, possibly bans from hunting etc.
One of the guides and the landowner are facing charges of poaching.
As for the article referring to "what lion?" claiming zimbabweans don't care, they asked the information minister... usually not very up to date on details involving endangered species or the environment...ask the right people. If Zimbabweans did not care the Environment minister would not be calling for the USA to extradite the dentist to face charges. "We are appealing to the responsible authorities for his extradition to Zimbabwe.” Environment Minister Ms. Muchinguri also said that Dr. Palmer’s use of a crossbow and arrow to shoot the lion before eventually killing him with a gun had breached Zimbabwe’s hunting rules.

The Dentist in question is not an ethical legal hunter, records show  In 2006, Palmer received a year’s probation and a $3,000 fine after he pleaded guilty to illegally killing a black bear in Wisconsin.

Like I said, it does not matter if one supports or dissagrees with trophy hunting, the outrage is or at least should be over the issues I stated above. Lions are killed in Africa a lot legally, this one was not and was a vital source of information for conservation as well as a huge tourist draw which brought vital money into the economy.This would not be a big issue if the dentist had been in a legal hunt, and had no previous record for poaching

[skaha]

Or, they could participate in the sustainable industry of safari tourism where many hundreds of people can see the same animals over and over.  This would bring in more money in the long run, resulting in better living conditions for all.

Kenya is an example of how well that is working, so the "bringing in trophy killers is GOOD for the animals" argument is a bit of a straw man.

--I'm talking selective harvest not full scale slaughter. My friend also has a camera and has many "shots" that did not result in the killing of an animal. Anyone that fishes is in effect participating in a selective harvest and even C&R guys result in the demise of some animals. Maybe we should only fish with a camera as well.... not that there is anything wrong with that.

--The way game is managed in the area he hunted is like a quota. The village has a quota with specific regulation on the number of animals, age class etc. that they are allowed. In return the wild animals get acces to occupy areas that would in the past have domestic livestock. In essence they turned over their legal grazing areas to expand wild animal protected areas.
--When these areas were being grazed with domestic animals the herdsmen were allowed to kill any wild animal that threatened their herd.

--Selective harvest is also sustainable... and where there are limited resources it is a way to manage a healthy population. 

--I am for sure in favour of having some areas managed/protected no hunting allowed and in as natural a settng a possible

[zacrum]

--I'm talking selective harvest not full scale slaughter. My friend also has a camera and has many "shots" that did not result in the killing of an animal. Anyone that fishes is in effect participating in a selective harvest and even C&R guys result in the demise of some animals. Maybe we should only fish with a camera as well.... not that there is anything wrong with that.

--The way game is managed in the area he hunted is like a quota. The village has a quota with specific regulation on the number of animals, age class etc. that they are allowed. In return the wild animals get acces to occupy areas that would in the past have domestic livestock. In essence they turned over their legal grazing areas to expand wild animal protected areas.
--When these areas were being grazed with domestic animals the herdsmen were allowed to kill any wild animal that threatened their herd.

--Selective harvest is also sustainable... and where there are limited resources it is a way to manage a healthy population. 

--I am for sure in favour of having some areas managed/protected no hunting allowed and in as natural a settng a possible

you are missing the point that they baited a lion out of a protection zone   to kill and keep just the head    are you going to take a sturgeon to a zone and kill it snd keep just the head no    why is this different

[clarkii]

you are missing the point that they baited a lion out of a protection zone   to kill and keep just the head    are you going to take a sturgeon to a zone and kill it snd keep just the head no    why is this different

Skaha is talkng about his friend not the dentist.

As for those of you who are saying its not a legal hunt, I have news for you.

There is no such thing as an illegal hunt or a legal hunt.  A hunt is the legal harvesting of an animal.

Poaching is illegal harvesting.

[skaha]

--That is correct... I don't mind hunting... I don't condone poaching.

[anorden]

Tourists and going on a safari are excellent ways to stimulate an economy.

Yet another myth made up by the anti hunting crowd.

Eco tourism and photo safaris only work in very very specific situations and locations. The anti bear hunting crowd claim bear viewing brings in more conservation $ than hunting. Yet their study is based on a few square Km of the highest bear density in bc (knight inlet in the great bear rainforest). Do you really think a German tourist will pay 1000's to go to the kootenays and go 2 weeks not seeing a bear? Would the same person take 4 charter flights round Mozambique to sleep in a tent by a mosquito infested swamp just to see a buffalo?

[RalphH]

I think this is a very bad scenario to judge "trophy" hunting or hunting in general. What do people mean when they talk about trophy hunting? It's not specifically about shooting lions or grizzlies for mounts only. I don't hunt but I am ok with hunting. There may be some issues around hunting large carnivores but trophy hunting for a large prime specimen where the meat is also take and consumed is as sporting as general subsistence hunting.

[TheFishingLad]

Yet another myth made up by the anti hunting crowd.

Eco tourism and photo safaris only work in very very specific situations and locations. The anti bear hunting crowd claim bear viewing brings in more conservation $ than hunting. Yet their study is based on a few square Km of the highest bear density in bc (knight inlet in the great bear rainforest). Do you really think a German tourist will pay 1000's to go to the kootenays and go 2 weeks not seeing a bear? Would the same person take 4 charter flights round Mozambique to sleep in a tent by a mosquito infested swamp just to see a buffalo?

No one here is preaching anything close to 'anti-hunting'. The conservation efforts in Canada are vastly superior to those of other nations where bear tags are limited and coincide with bear populations that are ever changing. The rules are different when you can pay off officials and everyone else to kill an endangered species.

[Carich980]

No one here is preaching anything close to 'anti-hunting'. The conservation efforts in Canada are vastly superior to those of other nations where bear tags are limited and coincide with bear populations that are ever changing. The rules are different when you can pay off officials and everyone else to kill an endangered species.

I keep hearing people using these terms Threatened/Endangered However WWF doesnt have lions listed on their list at all.

https://www.worldwildlife.org/species-categories/big-cats/species/directory

Intrestingly I did find one site that listed them as Vunerable due to a chance of inbreeding and Isolated Prides. However where Cecil was shot is considered to have an avg of 30,000 lions, bewtween estimated 16500 -47000, with 49 total lions taken as trophies in 2013 and exported. Lets take another Avg of $50,000 per hunt and say thats $2,450,000 going into Africa.

Now what people are saying is that this Population of lions is to low to allow Trophy hunting to continue with 49 killed out of a estimated 30,000. According to the Same Red list which is IUCN White Sturgeon in the Fraser River have an estimated 22,000. But yet no one has a propblem with the catch and release fishery taking place here. Many argue that catch and release fishing stress fish to the point of exhaustion which results in death. Do you think that Mortality from catch & release on sturgeon is anywhere near 49?

http://www.iucn.org/knowledge/tools/databases/
 
Now if you want to talk Ethics according to the Eco Nuts that pushing this Cecil issue. Trophy hunters are more Humane than Catch and release fisherman. In their Eyes your hooking a fish in the face for your enjoyment and fun causing stress and harm to the Fish. Whereas Trophy Hunters try to end their hunt in a quick kill. Not so in this case but this comes across to me as a poacher anyways, Im not defending his actions at all.

On another note I also hear alot of guys say " Im a hunter and Idont support trophy hunting" but then see a lot these same guys participate in 4 point only, Full curl, 6 point bull, 10 point bull, These are vastly trophy seasons. Just because you harvest and eat them doesnt mean your not a trophy hunter, if you ever took a picture with a dead animal or kept its parts asmemory Sorry bud thats a Trophy. Theres fish photos all over this site and any eco nut would consider that a trophy too.

[dennyman]

Here is an article from an individual about the aftermath of Cecil the Lion's killing,and the longterm effects it could have on the region.
https://www.oximity.com/user/Dr.-Rosie-Clooney-1.

[zacrum]

I keep hearing people using these terms Threatened/Endangered However WWF doesnt have lions listed on their list at all.

https://www.worldwildlife.org/species-categories/big-cats/species/directory

Intrestingly I did find one site that listed them as Vunerable due to a chance of inbreeding and Isolated Prides. However where Cecil was shot is considered to have an avg of 30,000 lions, bewtween estimated 16500 -47000, with 49 total lions taken as trophies in 2013 and exported. Lets take another Avg of $50,000 per hunt and say thats $2,450,000 going into Africa.

Now what people are saying is that this Population of lions is to low to allow Trophy hunting to continue with 49 killed out of a estimated 30,000. According to the Same Red list which is IUCN White Sturgeon in the Fraser River have an estimated 22,000. But yet no one has a propblem with the catch and release fishery taking place here. Many argue that catch and release fishing stress fish to the point of exhaustion which results in death. Do you think that Mortality from catch & release on sturgeon is anywhere near 49?

http://www.iucn.org/knowledge/tools/databases/
 
Now if you want to talk Ethics according to the Eco Nuts that pushing this Cecil issue. Trophy hunters are more Humane than Catch and release fisherman. In their Eyes your hooking a fish in the face for your enjoyment and fun causing stress and harm to the Fish. Whereas Trophy Hunters try to end their hunt in a quick kill. Not so in this case but this comes across to me as a poacher anyways, Im not defending his actions at all.

On another note I also hear alot of guys say " Im a hunter and Idont support trophy hunting" but then see a lot these same guys participate in 4 point only, Full curl, 6 point bull, 10 point bull, These are vastly trophy seasons. Just because you harvest and eat them doesnt mean your not a trophy hunter, if you ever took a picture with a dead animal or kept its parts asmemory Sorry bud thats a Trophy. Theres fish photos all over this site and any eco nut would consider that a trophy too.

   I vote catch and release Lion hunting