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[FlyFishin Magician]

I have little issue with Flossing the Fraser... If the natives can net,  the commies can net,  why can Joe blow use a method  that saves time and is more effective? Everyone else can....  If there were no commies/fn there would be more fish = better fishing but they have run the stocks down to the point we have little opportunity

I was referring to this portion of your post.

[greyghost]

Wow. Doja, I'm a little sad to see a grown person still act like a child.

Your "If they can do it, so should I." attitude is extremely like my 2 year old son. I think your entitlement has blinded you.

Question for you tech. Are you describing Doja or yourself? I seem to remember you calling out the Chilliwack slayer, you know the big guy that smashes boulders with his fists. I think there where tickets being sold and it was supposed to be scheduled on PPV! Oh wait a second I got this all wrong. That was the Boxing Day Derby! Sorry about that guys just a little side tracked, carry on!

[RalphH]

I was referring to this portion of your post.

I agree with doja. Fifteen plus years of foofaraw over flossing while other sectors pull sockeye and pinks out of the river and the strait in the millions  would leave any reasonable non-angler baffled. As for childish - internet outing, harassment and name calling fits that like a glove. This ethics stuff is a scam. It has noting to do with ethics, it's a battle over resources - who gets what section of the river and how close is the next guy. I've fished in the lower mainland for over 50 years and salmon fishing was and is always a mess when the big runs come in and some 'ethical' angler is always bitching simply because they feel crowded out. There is nothing else to it.

[bcguy]

Its always a tough call, I hear guys say they wont bounce, but have no problem buying a netted salmon from a Save On or Natives...
As far as a fishing method, if the soxs arent open, then use a selective method to avoid the problem.
On an off topic I had to laugh when a group of obvious inexperienced fisherman showed up on the tidal Fraser yesterday with bouncing gear and absolutely struggled to figure out why it wasn't working   
Nothing like casting and retrieving a 3 oz betty for a couple hours 
Some times its not ignorance...just inexperience.
As far as the original subject, just a statement at the till with the regulations would be fine, it is a business. Alcohol and cigarettes are a bad thing too but are sold...but just why are there parking lots in pubs and bars again?

[doja]

I was referring to this portion of your post.

I do think Joe blow has a fair argument...  Nothing more... Are you saying you don't strive to improve your fishing skills? Of course you do and you get great joy from it.  So does floss er Joe,  lol. Maybe you are smarter than he is and can deploy better methods but he is still learning and improving in his own way and he probably finds joy in it...

The point is if you want him to change his ways understanding why he does what he does is important.

I also have a hard time wrapping my head around buying fish from boats that history has clearly demonstrated as destroying stocks as "ethical"...

I also remember starting on my own many years ago and the non-flossing crowd was very unhelpful and vs the floss ers who were very accommodating to helping me learn and sharing the run....  I try to be helpful with info to those who seek it.  But the Jeannie's out of the bottle now... The only change u could see that could come is from showing/sharing a alternative way but not all will want to...

Do those warnings on smokes really help....  No,  lol

[Tylsie]

Wow, so many topics in one thread. To answer the original question; no, stores should not try to tell people what to buy. If a person has questions about what is productive, or legal, then yes a store should try its best to create an informed customer. But if someone walks in and knows what they want they should be able to buy it. Plus, if a guy really wants to bottom bounce there are several ways to create your own weights. Many of which people would lose their tops over if they were banned.

As for the issue of flossing and the regulations, I do not think the DFO should dictate how sport fishers should fish when they allow other user groups that have a much larger impact to have free reign. Why not say fish wheels only, or fish traps only. They are effective and allow easy release of non target species. Sport fishers cannot have an impact on stocks in systems as large as the Fraser. Blaming them, and controlling them is nothing but a publicity stunt.

As for the issue of Flossers and other fisherman. To me it is a simple, why does a person fish. Does a person fish to put meat on the table or does a person fish for entertainment. I fish for entertainment. I love going to the river, setting up my bar rig, having a wobbly pop and hanging with friends,  casting spinners to schools of pinks trying to see how many I can hook, watching a Coho jump and throw the hook. Smile every time. Then there are the guys who fish to put meat on the table. They want to know where there food came from, and know they had a hand it putting it there. A very effective way of doing this is on flossing. If they take there limit and leave I have no problem with it. They bought their license, bought their gear, put their time in and have as much right to those fish as I do. 

[fishingwithjohn]

^ I have to agree. Why are these hooks in the water in the first place...To eat, for sport, or both. If we all cared about the salmon that much could we not just walk down to the river to bask in the glorious return of our 'sacred resources'...well its not this way and it never will be. To completely deny and even blame a single method or mentality on the decline of salmonid populations is more of an appeal to emotion than actual substance. We must account for all the impacts on this multifaceted issue if that is indeed what we are trying to get at here and also weight them accordingly...A rough estimate would put fishing of any single hook and rod method well below many factors...Remember it only effects the ones coming back, and not the ones that could've come back to spawn.

[FlyFishin Magician]

Good points guys - I'm not going to argue with the "bigger picture" and I'm not condoning DFO's decisions now or in the past.  Nor was I even attempting to imply that a single method was resulting in the decline of the fish.  Furthermore, I wasn't speaking from the point of view of the general public.  As sports fishers, we all have a responsibility to be aware of the regulations and I believe we should be adhering to DFO's requests regardless of the impact on the stocks.  Flossing is not a good thing for the sockeye that are moving through for which there were no openings at all for the commies, and no recent openings for natives (AFAIK), even if the impact is relatively small.  I guess what I'm saying is two negatives do not equal a positive.  Again, when I hear about "Joe" just wanting his share compared to the commercial and first nations fisheries, I hear a sense of "entitlement".  That's all.  Is the fact that "Joe" doesn't know any better an excuse?  Maybe for "Joe" himself in the short term.  But not for me, and I'd like to believe that many of you as experienced sport fishers would feel the same.  But "Joe" is within the law - I'll give him that.  It doesn't mean that I think he's being ethical - in fact, if he knows what he's doing, then he is not.

Here's another way to look at it.  How many times have you seen people (who are new or maybe not) beach their fish - flopping on the rocks, only to be kicked back into the river?  Do you agree with that?  The impact on the stocks from that behaviour is relatively small compared to the commercial and native nets.  Of course this behaviour is not acceptable (at least I hope you agree with me on that one).  But if your going to use the argument of "relative impact" on the fish, then this would be a similar situation - although abusing fish is illegal while flossing is "discouraged".

As for the stores, I would encourage that they do not sell the flossing gear if they know what it's going to be used for.  However, I wouldn't openly criticize them for doing so as it is well within the law.  But the question is much more complex than a simple yes or no answer.

[Tangles]

So what you are saying is its immoral, unethical and a ticket to hell for Joe Blow to go kill two fish after driving 300km round trip and pouring hundreds in tackle and licences? Yet somehow it's perfectly normal to allow boats by the hundreds, hauling several thosand fish at time of which many threatened stocks are squished to death? And that goes on every season to benefit a small group of seasonal fishers and MOSTLY the large grocery corporations like Safeway, Loblaw etc.
Why is sponsoring big business seen as perfectly normal to people like you? Well I guess you believe blindly in the establishment and since the Fraser stocks have been run down for many years now many people can't imagine it being any other way.
I don't support flossing, snagging and abusing fish, I don't practise and endorse it but I have no problem if someone put all the hard work to kill their two and go home.
You talk about entitlement, again why are save-on and superstore more entitled to a natural resourse that is a national treasure and we all have the right to defend it, not different than dredging pipelines trough favourite parks and rivers, you'd like to have your opinion heard.
Of course I'm not stupid and realise the netting is here to stay till the bitter end, but it gets me when cocky, oh sorry "passionate" anglers start ripping someone faces of because they killed 10-20 socks every few seasons.
Cheers

[doja]

"But the question is much more complex than a simple yes or no answer. "

Much bigger.  We have people who were raised to be greedy,  lazy, one sighted, and as such look for the shortest route to a outcome. Laws haven't been shown to really work all that well there,  and as said before I think DFO likes the current situation. Social pressure has always been one of the better tools (I think) if used properly but it is often applied in a improper way (calling people a 2 year old,  lol)  generating poor results and conflict. Maybe shops/the concerned community should organize barfing days or something to encourage participants to fish using different methods they have not used before with proper instruction/guidance with the added bonus of being part of a community which is always funner!!! I think people being social animals would be open to hanging with a bunch of people learning and having fun while also catching fish...  This is how most of us learned to fish (from others)  but it's funny when people DON'T want to share with others (I see it often,  more with the older crowed) ...  The old saying you can't force someone to do something they don't want to do but you can certainly encourage him via several methods. Those flossing generally are not part of the community... Why is that? And what can we do to bring them into the community? I think success lays somewhere around here... Also the bigger and more organized the community  the more pull it has... But it first hast to mature...  Then  Put/keep more fish in the river! Lol

[typhoon]

This is a very simple question: Is flossing fishing?
The answer has to be no.

Since it is not fishing it must be treated like commercial fishing (i.e. harvesting). A flosser must have a commercial fishing licence and it won't be worth your effort to floss. Nets are more efficient.

[doja]

This is a very simple question: Is flossing fishing?
The answer has to be no.

Since it is not fishing it must be treated like commercial fishing (i.e. harvesting). A flosser must have a commercial fishing licence and it won't be worth your effort to floss. Nets are more efficient.

Spear fishing is "fishing", lol

[Tangles]

I still can't understand why is private big corporations entitled to a natural resourse that is one BC's landmarks but regular Joe is a criminal for killing his two? Why you can't harvest your two fish but the gill nets are fine scooping everything that moves including threatened stocks? Humans have been hunter-gatherers since the dawn of days, and now that's frowned upon, but a modern, deadly effective netting of the most important BC river is a top priority?

[Fish or cut bait.]

Although I have a.problem with some commercial practices.
There also churns a short sighted logic.
In reading some of these posts I am to believe that only those that are fortunate to be able to SPORTFISH should have the luxury of eating their catch.

By that logic only those that.grow their own Potatoes and raise their own cattle should be able to eat fries with their burger.
Can't have a house unless you own your own forest.

Fishing is a big part of our economy and that economy is the reason most of us are here.

Sure there needs to be changes in how we do things but it is far more than Safeway and Superstore that benefit from this resource.

[fishtruck]

Speaking for myself only, the reason why I think flossing is such a touchy topic is that, it's such a socially deviant practice. When  we  fish, we hope to abide by the same social contract that we  share with other fishers. We conduct ourselves in a  socially acceptable manner regarding how to fish. Along comes the flossing who breaks that contract, a contract that we're trying to upholding. It's similar to all of us standing in line to access some service, and comes along someone who goes to the front of the line and butts in. We would feel annoy to say the least.