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Author Topic: roe  (Read 28494 times)

LP89CG

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roe
« on: October 26, 2015, 01:31:49 PM »

what makes the difference between good roe and bad roe, or what ruins roe during the prep?
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fishing4salmon

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Re: roe
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2015, 01:58:10 PM »

Blood in the skein  will ruin a good roe
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BCfisherman97

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Re: roe
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2015, 02:16:44 PM »

I fully agree on the blood comment. If there is still blood even after you bleed the fish (there usually is a little bit), cut the vein that runs along the skein and take a spoon and guide any blood along the vein until it comes out of slit you made. Clean it with a paper towel after it is out.
Another big one is if you do not butterfly your skein and the cure doesn't distribute evenly to all parts of the skein. This will make a nice looking outside with a mushy inside that didn't receive any cure.
Fool around with the dying process and you'll see how much time it takes for a tacky egg vs a wet one. I like wet eggs for fishing red chinooks in the summer. You go through more eggs but if you're catching fish that's ok. For coho and steelhead I like a tacky egg (I don't cure eggs for steel, just put borax).
The biggest mistake people make is not taking care of their eggs. Make sure the bleed the fish well as mentioned before.
If you overkill the drying and overkill the borax you could potentially dry out your eggs too much.
Finally, a mistake I see all the time comes during the curing process itself. After applying the cure, there will be a lot of juice in the container or bag, this is normal. People tend to drain that off but make sure you never do. The eggs will release liquid and the cure will turn into liquid quickly. The eggs will then reobsorb the liquid and become bigger and more plump after a few hours. So let the cure do the work.
You generally don't have to worry about burning your eggs with newer cures anymore, especially with Pautkes Fire Cure and their new liquid egg cure which is stupidly simple to use.
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Zackattack

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Re: roe
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2015, 02:22:41 PM »

I find the most important thing is the right firmness/ dryness, what have you.
Too moist and it won't stay in the bait loop. Too dry and it won't milk and provide a good scent to the fish.

I simply borax and dry on racks until its up to my liking, which varies depending on size of skeins or precuts chunks I have made etc.
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LP89CG

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Re: roe
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2015, 02:25:37 PM »

i pulled the skein apart and got a lot of single eggs out and cured them, then put them into roe sacks, just not sure if my roe is any good... havent had a tonne of success with it, a spring or two and chum but nothing that makes me feel like i have good roe.
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dobrolub

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Re: roe
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2015, 03:00:17 PM »

A couple of copy/pastes from a different forum, that I found useful:

1. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS bleed your fish! in the net, a rope over the side or in the cooler. to me the eggs are more valuable than the fish. you have to have top quality eggs if you want to catch more fish. blood on the eggs can cause them to turn bad quickly.wipe off the skeins with a paper towel, plain paper, no print on it. some ingredients in cures will react negatively with inks in paper towels and newspaper. after the blood is off and the skeins are cut into bait sized pieces let drain to get all the excess liquid off. NEVER WASH THE EGGS!!!!! after you have used your cure lay out to dry on a piece of old fiberglass screen set atop of pop cans or such to allow good air flow around to dry the eggs. proper care of eggs is most critical to consistently catch more fish. and do not let cured eggs come into contact with metal, most cures will react to the metal as well. good luck with the eggs blake, and remember, blood belongs in the boat, not the eggs!

2. to properly bleed fish, stab the fish with a knife right behind the gill plate and in front of the pectoral fin. the heart is on the right side, this will cut the main artery and allow the fish to bleed very thourghly.
as for the people who say it doesnt matter if you have bloody eggs or not, good eggs are the difference between catching a couple fish or catching a dozen fish, we have all seen it on the river. usually there is one guy who is outfishing everyone although it "appears" you are doing what he is... a lot of times its the bait.
never wash your eggs! if you notice when removing the eggs from the fish there is a thick liquid with the eggs. this is part of what makes the eggs milk and carry the scent of the eggs. why would anyone want to wash this off???
if you put a lot of time into your bait, it will pay off! as proof, last year i fished a small river for fall chinook thanksgiving morning. i walked about 1 mile of river bank and caught 4 chinook using my friends eggs and he caught 5. once back to the truck i grabbed my eggs and we headed back down to the river. we walked the same area and fished the same holes, he caught 9 and i caught 22... all but 2 were chinook! nothing changed but the bait. he now swears by my bait!

3. Theres a million online resources which emphasize the importance of bleeding fish immediately after landing them.

Commercial fishermen live by a standard that makes a huge difference in thier sales. It all boils down to quality of the flesh at market time.

Ive attempted to emphasize the importance of bleeding AND gutting fish here several times with different reactions both in agreement, and, the popular " I've never noticed a difference"

For those of you interested in finding out if theres a difference, take an interest in science for a minute. I'll put it in as close to laymans terms as possible.

Blood in a dead or dying fish goes through many changes chemicaly. Studies clearly show blood is comprised of protiens, oxygen, hydrogen etc and when a fish dies and this blood is left in the veins and arteries a chemical breakdown occurs and, to make a long story short. Protiens are attacked by enzymes and the resulting waste is ammonia as well as other undesirables. Enzymes are living organisms that need oxygen to stay alive. Once the oxygen in the blood is depleted these enzymes attack oxygen rich flesh and cause a further breakdown....its called death kids. enzymes die and create bacteria almost immediately. Bacteria is alive too.. The bottom line is, bleeding fish properly makes a HUGE difference in fish texture, flavor and SHELF LIFE!

How does this apply to salmon eggs?

Theres no doubt in my mind that eggs cured from properly bled and gutted fish will catch far more fish than eggs cured from an unbled fish. No doubt at all. I make this statement not because of experience on the water using eggs from a bled fish along side eggs from an unbled fish. I am sure of this due to knowing what happens chemicallyinside a fish that has not been properly bled and gutted.

If humans, with a fraction of the "smell" senses of a fish can sense a difference in odor, texture and taste of a salmon fillet that has not been bled and gutted and chilled properly...does anyone have any doubts a salmon, which smells in parts per million would also react negatively to improperly handled eggs presented as bait? Remember, salmon are assumed to use thier sense of small to travel thousands of miles returning to thier native waters to spawn and die. Think they cant smell a little bacteria or ammonia in your cured eggs?

Enzymes left to die in fish blood produce millions more bacteria than in bled fish... No question about it.

Bleed those fish immediately. Severing the artery at the tail is by far the best way to bleed a fish but its not easy.
Ripping the gills with your hands produces more surface damage and causes more effective hemoraging than a sharp knife or scissors. Bonk the fish to incapacitate it...not to kill it. Obviously you want the heart to continue beating.

Blood contains parasites that will also look for oxygen when the blood has been depleted of it. Get the blood out quiker and the microscopic parasites, protiens and powerful enzymes will go with it and make a HUGE difference in your table fare as well as you eggs used for bait.

Gutting a fish soon after it has bled makes a big difference too, though its not always practical or reasonable on the boat while you're fishing.

If you want to take the advice of commercial fish buyers who have studied all the techniques to obtian the "best quality fish" bleed them, gut them and find the main artery located at the base of the spine near the anal fin and remove the end of that artery which will always be full of blood. Put a running hose in the cavity for a while and youll never have to use a spoon again to clean the blood along the spine. The flesh and the eggs will be a perfect pink with no sign at all of blood.

Allowing fish to go into and come out of rigor is also very important when it comes to flavor and texture. Leave it in the fridge or on ice until it completely finishes the "stiff" cycle and is limp again. This doesnt always happen when a fish is filleted before rigor has started and ended. Ask any of the many people here Ive fished with, I have never once filleted a fish at a fish cleaning station after a successful day. Theres a good reason. Rigor can take up to 30 hours. Never bend or force "stiff" fish to straighten out. You'll regret it when it comes time to eat it. Freeze fish that is already COLD and youll never have a problem with freezer burn. Get it good and cold in the fridge on ice for a day and then freeze it. It DOES make a difference.

I guaranty, if you dont bleed your fish while its alive, and wait all day to gut it until you get back to the launch. your fish will spoil within three days left in the refrigerator.

Bleed it, gut it and ice it within 60 minutes and those fillets can sit in the fridge covered for 7 to 10 days before they start smelling even a little fishy.

Bleed them fish! You'll be glad you did. Better table fare and much better bait.
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wonder

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Re: roe
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2015, 04:49:46 PM »

drying time, and i agree with bleeding immediately also
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 04:52:33 PM by wonder »
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kanuckle head

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Re: roe
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2015, 12:02:56 AM »

Visually how do ya decipher good roe from bad as long as they do not look like that vacuum packed mush on that mega store shelf

For me if the berries last 5 cast and still milk I feel confident   
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hrenya

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Re: roe
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2015, 05:35:14 AM »

"fresh roe" from berries = frozen before . you can see the color of it , its darkish , almost brown .
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Fishyy

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Re: roe
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2015, 12:01:24 PM »

I am new to this roe cure so any help would be grateful!

Do you need to cure it and then borax it if you will freeze them?
What if you just use the red borax? Will that work as well?
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Nicolas The Fisherman

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Re: roe
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2015, 12:47:36 PM »

I am new to this roe cure so any help would be grateful!

Do you need to cure it and then borax it if you will freeze them?
What if you just use the red borax? Will that work as well?
Usually I let the roe skeins air dry on racks for about 12-14 hours (depending on temperature). I will then cut each skein of roe into three pieces and then shake in borax. (Make sure to get the borax into all the flaps of the roe). The roe will go into ziploc bags, sealed, then into the freezer. Usually the roe lasts for 6-8 months in the freezer. The finished product is a nice, natural egg. If you want some colour, you can always add a bit of jello or kool-aid powder to the borax. If you want to use commercially made cures like Pro-Cure or Pautzke, you can use the search engine on this forum and you will come across many useful threads. Hope that helps! :)
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243Pete

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Re: roe
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2015, 04:14:38 AM »

Standard rules as everyone else. Bleed fish, cut open, place into seperate ziploc bag, get any remaining blood out of the skein by cutting along the vein every 3 inches or so depending on the size of skein, butterfly it open if it's fairly thick like a chum or spring skein, air dry on paper towel for 2-4 hours or till tacky to the touch, pour Pautzke fire cure to cover the top and bottom especially in some of the deeper parts of the skein and tumble around(in bag), put in ziploc bag and leave it outside at room temp for 4 hours, tumbling it around every hour so the juices coat everything and place in fridge for 24 hours, tumble again every 8-10 hours so the juices absorb back into the eggs and leave in the fridge till use.
A secondary step to the above that I've been trying is adding plain Borax to the eggs after the final curing process, seems to make the eggs a little tougher and lessens the "pink fingers" staining that the wet eggs do all so well. So far it's worked very well for me as I used to use Pro-cure but this year I switched it up and I am not sure I will be going back to Pro-cure with the results I've been having this year. ;D
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Animal Chin

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Re: roe
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2015, 01:57:14 PM »

A secondary step to the above that I've been trying is adding plain Borax to the eggs after the final curing process, seems to make the eggs a little tougher and lessens the "pink fingers" staining that the wet eggs do all so well.

I use firecure as well. I found keeping my freshly cured roe in lots of borax does toughen the skeins and dry out the eggs substantially. I use borax carefully and more so when I haven't had a lot of time to dry out the eggs properly for river fishing.

By the time I get to the river after driving from Vancouver they're almost perfect, as the day progresses they get decent for faster water etc. At the end of a long day, the smaller chunks are too dry for my liking.

As for storing and freezing, my experience has been, once cured I DO NOT store in borax. It has dried out my eggs so that they've been unusable. I also find that the freezing itself will result in a drier egg than if never frozen and straight out of fridge.

But I've done poorly this year, so take this for what it's worth. If you've been doing well, do whatever you're doing. Obviously your roe works.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 01:59:52 PM by Animal Chin »
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Flytech

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Re: roe
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2015, 05:28:35 PM »

I don't use coloured cure, but I don't roe fish very much. I often fish before work, and I don't want stinky fingers. ;)

243Pete

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Re: roe
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2015, 06:22:46 PM »

I use firecure as well. I found keeping my freshly cured roe in lots of borax does toughen the skeins and dry out the eggs substantially. I use borax carefully and more so when I haven't had a lot of time to dry out the eggs properly for river fishing.

By the time I get to the river after driving from Vancouver they're almost perfect, as the day progresses they get decent for faster water etc. At the end of a long day, the smaller chunks are too dry for my liking.

As for storing and freezing, my experience has been, once cured I DO NOT store in borax. It has dried out my eggs so that they've been unusable. I also find that the freezing itself will result in a drier egg than if never frozen and straight out of fridge.

But I've done poorly this year, so take this for what it's worth. If you've been doing well, do whatever you're doing. Obviously your roe works.

Not sure why it's doing that for you, I've personally found that even at the end of the day I can bring home any extra eggs I have and keep them for the next trip and they stay in good condition.

I haven't tried the frozen eggs I've stored in borax but now I am tempted to see how they will do and what condition they are in.  :-\ Slightly worried but who knows.

A friend tried my version after I was into my 7th spring many a week ago in under two hours, made 2 swings and he was on. I'm using the red color fire cure and it's been working rather well this season.
Well I am going to wish you some better luck, maybe with the rain we will get this week you will catch more coho! ;D

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