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Author Topic: Non Selective Fishing.  (Read 15759 times)

chris gadsden

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Re: Non Selective Fishing.
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2016, 07:35:18 PM »

Attacking the First Nations will get us no where when it comes to our fishing opportunities. If more people would take the advice of what Rodney has taken a lot of time to explain in these posts on this tread we all would be far better off.

How many people here belong to a  organization that Rod has mentioned and contribute in time or donations? Also one can always put back to make the environment along our rivers better by attending several cleanups held by the Chilliwack Vedder River Cleanup Society and others.

Instead of bashing First Nations lets clean up our house first and do what we can so we will continue to enjoy sports fishing on the Fraser River and other rivers in the years ahead.

Sage2106

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Re: Non Selective Fishing.
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2016, 08:00:07 PM »

I agree 100% that bottom bouncing is a plague on our river. It's a cancer that continues to spread which is sickening. Yes I know fn have a right to fish for food that goes back to the start of time. But we need to start asking the question of them is how much is enough? I retained 3 chinook last year 0 coho and 1 hatchery steelhead. The problem arises with the fact thousands of fish are taken under the guides of food fishing. According to dfo reports in the Cohen commission 97% of fn fish end up sold illegally. We as sports fisherman have been restricted more and more over the years to fish in the dwindling fish stocks which we play an immeasurable part in. I agree with Rodney we need a voice a strong voice but we must not shy from the true problems because they aren't politically correct. Chris I'm not bashing first nations I'm stating the facts. You know it's not the way it was back in the empress ball team derbies.

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salmonlander

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Re: Non Selective Fishing.
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2016, 08:36:30 PM »

Most of the individuals who fish the Fraser and even other rivers think things just happen with regards to accessing our to fish stocks. They do not belong to any organization which is a real shame. One group is the BCFDF whose mandate is to fight for our access to fish stocks. To join the cost is $10.00 per year. This group as others mentioned are run by volunteers fighting for you. We need younger people with passion to carry on the fight. Get out from behind your screens and do something positive. Join a fishing club, conservation group etc. you can then be proud you actually had a part in making a change instead of just ranting on your computer. 
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Birkenhead

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Re: Non Selective Fishing.
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2016, 08:44:47 PM »

Thanks to Rodney for his comprehensive post on a very complex subject. He is very correct that if change is wanted, people need to get involved. As I had mentioned in a previous post, that if various organizations such as the Fraser River Sport Fishing Alliance wishes to pursue changing laws and regs, they better have deep pockets as their case(s) may well end up in the Supreme Court of Canada. It would be interesting to know as how many people on this forum have donated both time and money to any of the various organizations.

As for the mention of the Cohen Report (which I have read all 3 volumes), there is more to the decline of Salmon then most people think...or what to think. For example, the report (Volume 2, Causes of the Decline) has the following summary. There are then hundred + pages following that delve into these theories of salmon decline and more.

The Commission investigated several potential causes of decline across the five different life stages of Fraser River sockeye
salmon.

Those potential causes included:
predation, infectious disease, contaminants, climate change.

Stressors in the freshwater environment(logging, agriculture, gravel removal, pulp and paper mills, metal mining, municipal wastewater, and other development-related impacts on fish habitat.)

Stressors in the marine environment (harmful algal blooms, salmon farms, sea lice, variations in marine productivity, and competition
with hatchery and other species / stocks of wild salmon). Some individuals, I suspect, hoped that our work would find the “smoking gun” – a single cause that explained the two-decade decline. The idea that a single event or stressor is responsible for the 1992–2009 decline in Fraser River sockeye is appealing but improbable.
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RalphH

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Re: Non Selective Fishing.
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2016, 08:59:23 PM »

Is this really true? Have the DFO ever actually cited too much non-selective methods going on as the actual reason for that or any other closure in the past? 


Yes in previous years, they have closed the river due to 'non-selective methods
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"The hate of men will pass and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people!" ...Charlie Chaplin, from his film The Great Dictator.

Sage2106

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Re: Non Selective Fishing.
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2016, 09:04:36 PM »

I have donated both time and money. Was involved with the coho encounters study volunteered my boat 3 years in a row. I was involved in the radio telemitry study of Thompson steelhead in 97 on the Fraser. I've been part of the salmon society at its inception when it first started all those years ago at bowmans. I would bet 90% of the people on fwr don't know what it was like to fish the Fraser before the retention of sockeye opened. I'm someone who is speaking from what I've seen through my own eyes of being on this river for 30+ years. Yes we need a voice it would be nice if the sport fishing alliance would offer memberships I would join in an instant.
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salmonlander

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Re: Non Selective Fishing.
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2016, 09:35:21 PM »

We did have a donation jar set up at island 22 info session last monday. I will bring this up at our next meeting but i am sure Fred would accept donations to FRSA at his store if you mentioned where it was to go. I will call him tomorrow.
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RalphH

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Re: Non Selective Fishing.
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2016, 09:54:42 PM »

people should also keep in mind FOC/DFO (The Federal Government) doesn't control fishing methods on the Fraser above Mission - it's Provincial Jurisdiction. So perhaps you should lobby them because other people already do.

As far as what the river was like pre-1993 (my local experience goes back to the 60s) - well life's a bitch. Once the genie is out of the bottle it's very difficult to put the bugger back in.
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"The hate of men will pass and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people!" ...Charlie Chaplin, from his film The Great Dictator.

armytruck

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Re: Non Selective Fishing.
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2016, 10:00:50 PM »

Maybe all tackle shops could have donation jars set up . Yes , there are a number of organizations out there however , they are not well advertised . If you don't here or see them except at sportsmen shows people won't know they are out there and what they seek and what we can do to physically to help . I'm sure if fishing report websites showed these groups and threw it in there face every time we open up our report page we would get more fishers involved . No?
 
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salmonlander

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Re: Non Selective Fishing.
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2016, 10:09:15 PM »

DFO is in charge of Salmon not provincial. It would be nice to have orginizations listed on web sites with contact info. I know there were many new members  signed up to BCFDF at Tradex show this year.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 10:13:05 PM by salmonlander »
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chris gadsden

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Re: Non Selective Fishing.
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2016, 10:21:04 PM »


Maybe all tackle shops could have donation jars set up . Yes , there are a number of organizations out there however , they are not well advertised . If you don't here or see them except at sportsmen shows people won't know they are out there and what they seek and what we can do to physically to help . I'm sure if fishing report websites showed these groups and threw it in there face every time we open up our report page we would get more fishers involved . No?
 
We, the Fraser Valley Salmon Society are on FB and our web site is here, http://www.fraservalleysalmonsociety.ca/ although it needs to be updated, will send our web master a note.

Here is our history I wrote a while ago but it is now out dated with Dean Werk now our president. Nick and I are the only ones left from the original group that started the FVSS in 1984. Many have passed on while others have retired after giving many years of service

Our History

By Chris Gadsden

On a hot humid day in May of 1984, on the 29th to be exact, 250 concerned Fraser River fishermen gathered in Evergreen Hall in Chilliwack. The agenda before them was to see if there was enough interest to form an organization to see what could be done to reopen the Fraser to the retention of adult chinooks. This once popular fishery had been closed since 1980. At the time of the meeting only chinook jacks up to 50 centimeters to a maxim limit of 4 per day could be retained.

What had triggered this meeting was the May 3, 1984 ticket received by the late Peter Epp, a long time Fraser River fisherman, for retaining an adult chinook. He caught it at the mouth of the Sumas River where it meets the Fraser, a popular spot for chinook fishing that usually started in April.

Sports fishers are among the best conservationists and law abiding user groups, and they did not support breaking the law, but it still seemed to many anglers that there was imbalance going on here regarding the allotment of these Pacific Salmon to the freshwater fishery. At this time in the ocean 30 chinook a year could be retained by a salt water angler.

During the time of the 4 year closure, the sporties on the Fraser River were the only user group not being able to retain adult chinooks, and they were the ones that science said has the least impact. As well, sports' fishing contributes millions of dollars to the economy in British Columbia, but the several businesses in the Fraser Valley suffered from the loss of this fishery.

Chris Gadsden and Fred Helmer Jr. presided at this meeting and outlined their reasons and goals for calling it. They were amazed and encouraged by the attendance at this original gathering. The attendees also gave the group a financial kick start tossing $322.51 into the hat that was passed through the crowd.

Individual anglers found at this meeting they had many allies and collectively they concluded there was strength in unity to press for changes.

At this meeting an executive of 18 was elected to formulate a game plan to how to try to reopen the fishery. Fred Helmer Sr. was elected to the presidency.

At the newly elected board's first executive meeting 2 days later, the name Fraser Valley Salmon Society was selected along with a crest design.

The newly-formed board determined a number of noteworthy points to work on that included:

1 Justice -- salt water limit vs. fresh water.

2 Develop a punch-card system similar to the saltwater one in use.

3 Enforcement of present regulations.

4 Inability of DFO to establish sport salmon catch numbers in the Fraser River.

5 Self policing being the presence of law abiding fisherman returning to the river.
A month later another general meeting was called where petitions and form letters were circulated to be sent to the then Liberal Fisheries Minister Pierre De Bane were circulated and filled out by the 100 interested fishers that turned out.

During the next couple of months the group was frustrated by a number of changes in the fisheries portfolio as De Bane was replaced soon after the letter writing campaign started being replaced on June 30 by The Honorable Herb Breau.

A little over 2 months later, on September 17, a new government, The Conservatives, were sworn into power with the Honorable John Fraser being appointed the new Fisheries minister.

The FVSS felt good about Fraser's appointment. With the same name as the Fraser River, was there some justice here? Fraser also was from the West Coast and was a sports angler himself, so the hope was he could identify the problems at hand.

At the same time as Fraser took the Fisheries Minister's post, FVSS got another boost as the now late Lee Straight gave the Society his support. Straight, a well-known newspaper columnist for the Vancouver Sun for many years, was also the Federal Fisheries' Pacific region ombudsman.

Straight was quoted in the Chilliwack Progress On August 29 the same year,"The sports anglers on the Fraser are being wildly discriminated against by Federal Fisheries' regulations."

With all this, the fledgling group continued with their lobbying and was rewarded with an adult Chinook fishery for the month of October, 1984 even though it was on the Chilliwack/Vedder River and not the Fraser River.
The group pressed on with their agenda and was given an audience with the Federal Fisheries in Vancouver on January 25, 1985. Four directors that included Roy Huband, Fred Helmer Jr., Peter Sellmer, and the late John Vail all attended this much sought-after meeting. As well, director Huband, who represented FVSS interests on the Sports Fishing Advisory Board, took part in a meeting with the newly appointed Minister Fraser around the same time.

All this effort of writing campaigns and numerous meetings finally paid off as more success was made when the department announced an opening on the Fraser River from the Mission Bridge and up-stream to the power lines above the Agassiz – Rosedale Bridge.

The opening was from September 13 until October 31 with one Chinook a day over 50 cm in length. Once again this fishery was going again after a 5 year closure.

This fishery continued in varying lengths of time for a few years, but too slowly for some. FVSS wanted a 12-month fishery. The result was that a major protest fishery took place on Queens Bar off Island 22 on August the 10, 1986. This protest, attended by 50 or so members and supporters, was covered by 3 Vancouver-based Television stations along with local radio station news director Grant Ullyot and several newspapers.

This media attention once again drew the attention of the Department, and Fraser Valley MP, the late Ross Belsher, arranged a meeting with the once again new Fishery Minister, Tom Siddon.

The meeting, along with the presentation made by the then President, Pete Sellmer, was very well received by Siddon and his staff.

At the Conclusion of this meeting, Siddon asked Area Manager of the time Fred Fraser, "How many fish are we talking about for these fishers here Fred?"

When Fraser answered about 3,000, Siddon replied, "We are talking about only 3,000 pieces".

The rest is history as the seasons were expanded over a period of time until we have a Chinook season that starts May 1 and runs to December 31 in most cases.

The FVSS may still not have their 12-month fishery yet, but have expanded the fishery to all species of Pacific Salmon over the years. Also, the FVSS success story has created other fishing opportunities throughout the Province of British Columbia the last few years.

These expanded fisheries have created an economic boom to the Valley that generates millions of dollars to the local economy. Anglers are attracted world wide to the Chilliwack area to fish the Fraser, the largest salmon-producing river in the world.

Several new guiding operations have sprung up recently to accommodate these seekers of the Pacific salmon, with the Chinook being the king of them all, as they can reach 60 pounds of fighting fury. As well, the FVSS supports the continuing of the sturgeon catch-and-release fishery that also is very popular for the in-coming tourists.

The FVSS is now recognized by all levels of Government as a power to be recognized. The Society's directors sit on different boards and organizations way to numerous to mention. They also put on a yearly All About Fishing show directed at educating the young anglers, as well as an annual coarse-fishing day in June at Cultus Lake. Last year former Vancouver Canuck Trent Klatt and his 5 children took in the event. Fin the team's popular mascot was also a hit for the young anglers.

One wonders what would have happened to this fishery now taken for granted by many new anglers if 200 concerned anglers did not get together on that hot and humid evening 20 years ago and formed the Fraser Valley Salmon Society.

If it was not for the past presidents that included Fred Helmer Sr, Peter Sellmer, Sandy Ritchie, Fred Helmer Jr. and the present President Frank Kwak along with numerous different directors over the years, where would we be? If it was not for all their unselfish service to the fishing community we most likely would be still sitting on the banks of the Fraser instead of fishing for adult Chinooks and other species. We must remember to thank them all for the thousands of countless hours they have so freely given, and the hundreds of meetings they've attended over these 26 past years and are still attending.

To Quote Izaak Walton, "God never did make a more calm, quiet and innocent recreation than angling." How true that statement was and still is.

I am sure present presidents, directors and all those that will follow in the future will work to retain this recreation, sports angling on the Fraser River

RalphH

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Re: Non Selective Fishing.
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2016, 06:03:01 AM »

DFO is in charge of Salmon not provincial.

and that's all - when salmon are open and what retention is allowed. DFO cannot close a water outright neither or set fishing methods. You also have to consider DFO has by policy not discriminated between tackle or method no matter what the conservation or ethical considerations.
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TNAngler

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Re: Non Selective Fishing.
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2016, 08:36:57 AM »

Is this really true? Have the DFO ever actually cited too much non-selective methods going on as the actual reason for that or any other closure in the past? 

The whole "non-selective method is strongly discouraged" thing has been in the recreational fisheries notices for over 10 years now and hasn't done squat in changing behavior. It's been so ineffective that it's basically a running joke IMHO. As long as its technically legal then lots of people are going to do it.

If they don't want bottom bouncing then come up with some regulation that can be specifically enforced and then maybe us as a sport-fishing community can use to pressure fellow anglers. Set Line Only, leader length restrictions, or whatever. I believe the vast majority of fisherman are law abiding so if you change the regs they will follow.

Considering how rich the salmon fishing opportunities are around here I surprised how far behind the curve Canada/BC is in this. BB/snagging is not unique to us, west coast states like Washington & Oregon have had the same problems but at least they have taken the initiative to put some regs in place to deal with it.  The fact that we are so far behind on this is embarrassing.

Related note; why is it seemingly so hard to change regs here? I heard an unsubstantiated rumour that they were very close to implementing a leader length restriction or something last year but it got derailed by some faction. Perhaps someone more familiar with the process can lay out the process or barriers...

Hmm, reading this makes you wonder if they actually want to solve the issue, doesn't it?  What better way to keep the sports fishermen divided into all the respective groups and much easier to conquer?  You get people cursing about people going out and fishing in a way that is still legal.  They can close the river back down for some vague reasons and either blame a group or leave it to the infighting of all the groups over who is to blame.

Rod's post backs up this theory.  Suggestions have been made that could help the issue but those aren't listened to.  They assign bottom bouncing to people in the lower Fraser because they are casting when most people would say there is no way to bottom bounce that low in the river effectively.  Until there is a unified group and a unified voice, you can expect the recreational fisheries to continue to get the shaft.  There is no worry about that group.  They can't put together a unified front even in the most egregious decisions.  Screw over the FN or even the commercial groups and there will be fall out.  Recreational guys?  Might get a dozen people complaining so who cares.
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Rieber

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Re: Non Selective Fishing.
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2016, 09:20:23 AM »

Change regulations to set-line only.

No thanks. Many people like to use flies or spoons or plugs.

 
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skaha

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Re: Non Selective Fishing.
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2016, 09:29:27 AM »

Hmm, reading this makes you wonder if they actually want to solve the issue, doesn't it?  What better way to keep the sports fishermen divided into all the respective groups and much easier to conquer?  You get people cursing about people going out and fishing in a way that is still legal.  They can close the river back down for some vague reasons and either blame a group or leave it to the infighting of all the groups over who is to blame.

Rod's post backs up this theory.  Suggestions have been made that could help the issue but those aren't listened to.  They assign bottom bouncing to people in the lower Fraser because they are casting when most people would say there is no way to bottom bounce that low in the river effectively.  Until there is a unified group and a unified voice, you can expect the recreational fisheries to continue to get the shaft.  There is no worry about that group.  They can't put together a unified front even in the most egregious decisions.  Screw over the FN or even the commercial groups and there will be fall out.  Recreational guys?  Might get a dozen people complaining so who cares.

--I agree with at least trying to find common ground.  If current clubs or groups do not reperesent your ideals get one going that does.
--I belong to a fishing club that belongs to both the BCFFF and BCWF... Now that makes for some interesting arguements and conflcilting ideals within our Club and when we try to bring forward resolutions for fisheries management that have provincial consequence... like Steelhead management practices...we often have heated discussions, but we try and as a club we also actually work on local fisheries projects. As much as we argue with passion we also enjoy fishing with and supporting other area clubs and local First Nations with projects that benefit fish.
--The biggest benefit has been listening to and sharing information with others.



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