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[RalphH]

Your license allows you to try to get the fish to bite, not try to run your line through their mouth and drag them to shore.

this is only your limited interpretation. There is no 'legal finding' (as in no court has ruled on 'flossing') and DFO position is that if a fish is hooked in the mouth or even thereabouts, it's been legally hooked.

Truth is there is no 'ethical' way to trick a fish and/or to stick a hook in it's mouth. Either is so far removed from any other form of ethical thought it is ridiculous.

No one says it is unethical to net a fish or spear it or snare it where those forms are legal. Most fish caught and eaten by people are not caught by sport fishing. The only difference between 'ethical' angling, flossing and snagging is that one of the 3 is illegal so at least there is clarity around that one.

As has been said what the flossing issue is about it people who don't want to have to share or see a class of people on the river that they disdain. This is something that also has racial implications.

[wildmanyeah]

Screw it. I don't even see the point in asking. I've asked for help so many times on this forum and all I get are cheeky self-preserving answers. What do you expect from the fishing community when all you put in is arrogance?
I've spent some time here and all I've seen is people putting politics and egos before sharing, teaching, and helping.
I asked a question about fish parasites once and the twit that commented just wanted to critique my photography skills rather than contribute.
I live in the north. Meat here is about a third of the price more than what it is for lower mainlanders. I love fishing and I love eating fish. I WANT to learn how to do this properly so I can keep doing it, and my kids can keep doing it.

I'm not going to let this die. I'm just going to get my answers somewhere else.

Rod has many informative videos on ethical or better sporting ways to catch salmon. He has lots on how to rig roe and what type of spinners and lures work.

Here are some links!

http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=40170.0 For how to float fish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOnmPLQogIA For fishing with Spinners for Coho, He has lots of great vids on Youtube. Crocks and colorado spinners seem to be the ticket!

Basically you are flossing when you are using an extremely long leeder. I really would not see the point of using anything more than 3 feet in the river. DFO has been for many years attempting to limit the size of leeder. Unfortunately, however it means adjusting the federal fishing charter and would actually need to be adjusted through the house of commons to be enforced by law.

IMO people learn to fish and where to fish from Local tackle shops. You go in, you ask them whats working, they hand you what you need and tell you where to go. Unfortunately they make an extreme amount of money from people flossing. You can tell this because when sockey season is shut down they complain that they are gonna go out of business. What do tackle shops sell during sockey season? bouncing betties, hooks,wool, lines, corkies, beads.

Right now its up to the individual fishermen to decide what the best spotting method is.

On an interesting side note i am currently reading a fishing book from 1910 that criticized any other method then flyfishing non ethical.  heres the link its about fishing in BC great read! http://biodiversitylibrary.org/item/68381#page/1/mode/1up

[Shmoke Shaman]

I really hate the guys who rip every time their float comes to the end of their drift.

[Rieber]

I don't think using bait is ethical. I believe flies and lures(atrificials) are the only ethical means of sport fishing. You might not have the same beliefs.

[Noahs Arc]

I believe any method is ethical, as long as the fish is enticed to bite.

[bbronswyk2000]

I don't think using bait is ethical. I believe flies and lures(atrificials) are the only ethical means of sport fishing. You might not have the same beliefs.

So green wool in thee Fraser is ethical? LOL Just teasing buddy

This conversation is the exact reason I have not fished the Vedder or Stave in the last 3 years. I almost stopped at the Stave today after having no success on the Fraser. Glad I didnt make that mistake.

Here is the thing. You are not going to be able to stop it. Thats the bottom line. So why not fish other places where this doesnt happen.

I had the entire week off this week as I take it off to fish for coho. Of the 4 days I fished between Monday-Friday I caught coho everyday except today. Brought home a bunch of fish and one day I fished a system that has about 1 of 10 fish clipped. I had an epic day there of catching and releasing coho. The best part. I caught these fish while only being surrounded by mother nature. Nobody around at all.

Fishing to me is about relaxation. I do not want to fish somewhere where I am going to want to punch someone in the face. Thats not fishing to me and I will have no part of it.

[Rieber]

So green wool in thee Fraser is ethical? LOL Just teasing buddy

This conversation is the exact reason I have not fished the Vedder or Stave in the last 3 years. I almost stopped at the Stave today after having no success on the Fraser. Glad I didnt make that mistake.

Here is the thing. You are not going to be able to stop it. Thats the bottom line. So why not fish other places where this doesnt happen.

I had the entire week off this week as I take it off to fish for coho. Of the 4 days I fished between Monday-Friday I caught coho everyday except today. Brought home a bunch of fish and one day I fished a system that has about 1 of 10 fish clipped. I had an epic day there of catching and releasing coho. The best part. I caught these fish while only being surrounded by mother nature. Nobody around at all.

Fishing to me is about relaxation. I do not want to fish somewhere where I am going to want to punch someone in the face. Thats not fishing to me and I will have no part of it.

I've never hidden from the fact that I really enjoyed bottom bouncing the Fraser for Socks and Springs. I used to book my vacation time to make sure I was on the Fraser for opening morning of the Sock slaughter. I used to stack my freezer with sockeye - it used to look like cord wood. I enjoyed every minute and stayed till I got my limits every day - just crazy to think of the greed. I haven't bounced for years because of the requests of DFO and the popular flossing bashing. And I really don't want to be part of that gong show anymore.

I also no longer find it relaxing to fish the Fraser or Vedder anymore. Sometimes I really miss it but the thought of the crowds and my short temper with the idiots just turns me off. Plus this year my shoulder is buggered and I'm scared to slip and further injure it.

I'm not going to try stop or interfere with what or how people want to fish - I don't want to get involved because I think it would be hypocritical of me and I honestly now prefer just going out on Mill Lake by myself.

How can I tell someone not to do something when I enjoyed it so much myself? I used to b-bounce the Fraser and I liked it. Old dogs like me can change - I did.

[BBarley]

Screw it. I don't even see the point in asking. I've asked for help so many times on this forum and all I get are cheeky self-preserving answers. What do you expect from the fishing community when all you put in is arrogance?
I've spent some time here and all I've seen is people putting politics and egos before sharing, teaching, and helping.
I asked a question about fish parasites once and the twit that commented just wanted to critique my photography skills rather than contribute.
I live in the north. Meat here is about a third of the price more than what it is for lower mainlanders. I love fishing and I love eating fish. I WANT to learn how to do this properly so I can keep doing it, and my kids can keep doing it.

I'm not going to let this die. I'm just going to get my answers somewhere else.

Dufflayer, as someone who never contributes to this forum anymore seems as I don't live down south anymore and don't fish those tribs, I'll give you my two cents. I was raised on the Skeena and had the privilege of fishing the Lower Mainland tribs for a few years, and let's just say that it's a different world down there and they speak a different language.

I've had people blatantly accuse me of snagging while fishing my more preferred northern techniques, bottom bouncing with a 3 foot leader and twitching jigs without a float. The Fraser River sockeye fishery has created a cancer on the rivers down there that has honestly set an irreparable rift between fishermen based on something as simple as leader length. So understand as a Ferry Island guy, speaking to a Vedder guy and understanding his frustrations is like apples and oranges.

The fishery you speak of at Ferry Island was developed in the summer months for the typical non biting sockeye, it's a bastardization of fly fishing with flossing. Migrating sockeye hug the major riffle at the top of the island as it is close to shore and offers them the path of least resistance from the heavier current further out, the heavy sinktips slide through the run quickly and get down fast to the fish thus giving a quick easy lining. All salmon can be lined this way as most will travel a similar path up the river in a major river such as this, typically with the bigger fish preferring the stronger current and being further out.

As for wanting to know how to fish without lining, first step, ditch Ferry Island, or at the very least, move down the island and away from the riffle. Find places with softer current and focus on slower swings in tight to shore, there are lots of nice gradual sloping bars around Terrace that are ideal to have a type 3 sink tip with a slightly weighted fly. There are plenty of nice steelhead tribs around Terrace to hone your craft in the fall with almost certainty you won't floss a fish.

Anyway, I feel your frustration, I hope this helps clarify some things, if you want any more pointers or tips and don't want the southern BC hoard to hear, just PM me.

[Tylsie]

It's Friday, been a long week so why not jump into the ring. If a person is fishing legally, staying within his or her retention limit and enjoying themselves what difference does it truly make?

In all seriousness, the C/V is a put and take fishery. It would be impossible for all of the fish that return to spawn or for the hatchery to raise the eggs from the rest. If a person wants to drive 2 hours to spend 1 hr to snag a couple of then so be it. As long as the method is legal, only legal fish are kept and and he/she stays within their retention limit does it matter if a person was fly fishing, bait casting, or anything else? I prefer casting, be it hardware or flies. On Chocolate milk days I stay home and leave the river to the drifters. Perhaps the drifters should leave the blown out days to the rippers.

The thing about ethics is they are unique to a person. I would almost guarantee even among all the people who are attacking the snaggers each would disagree on some ethical grounds. Could be which systems should be fished, which should be left alone; taking a salmon just for the roe; the whole premise of hatcheries; it doesn't matter. I just use these as examples because they are issues we often discuss among my group with most none of us all agreeing on everything.

[bbronswyk2000]

It's Friday, been a long week so why not jump into the ring. If a person is fishing legally, staying within his or her retention limit and enjoying themselves what difference does it truly make?

In all seriousness, the C/V is a put and take fishery. It would be impossible for all of the fish that return to spawn or for the hatchery to raise the eggs from the rest. If a person wants to drive 2 hours to spend 1 hr to snag a couple of then so be it. As long as the method is legal, only legal fish are kept and and he/she stays within their retention limit does it matter if a person was fly fishing, bait casting, or anything else? I prefer casting, be it hardware or flies. On Chocolate milk days I stay home and leave the river to the drifters. Perhaps the drifters should leave the blown out days to the rippers.

The thing about ethics is they are unique to a person. I would almost guarantee even among all the people who are attacking the snaggers each would disagree on some ethical grounds. Could be which systems should be fished, which should be left alone; taking a salmon just for the roe; the whole premise of hatcheries; it doesn't matter. I just use these as examples because they are issues we often discuss among my group with most none of us all agreeing on everything.

Ethics is one thing, breaking the law is another. Snagging fish is illegal.

[DanL]

Screw it. I don't even see the point in asking. I've asked for help so many times on this forum and all I get are cheeky self-preserving answers. What do you expect from the fishing community when all you put in is arrogance?
I've spent some time here and all I've seen is people putting politics and egos before sharing, teaching, and helping.
I asked a question about fish parasites once and the twit that commented just wanted to critique my photography skills rather than contribute.
I live in the north. Meat here is about a third of the price more than what it is for lower mainlanders. I love fishing and I love eating fish. I WANT to learn how to do this properly so I can keep doing it, and my kids can keep doing it.

There is no one right way to fish, its like asking whats the right way to cook eggs. As others have mentioned fishing ethics covers a huge spectrum of opinions. If you have questions about your specific setup then perhaps ask a very specific question and I'll wager you'll likely get a very specific answer. To simply ask "whats the right way to fish for salmon" is too broad and will mean many things to different people, and you'll get a whole range of answers, many of them not useful for you, as you've found.

Ethics is more about behavior as it is about gear. I could take my centrepin drift rod and slay on aggressive coho short-floating roe or be a dumbass and rip my hook through a school of holding coho with the same setup. To ask if a particular setup is ethical is mostly a meaningless question, because its the guy on the other end that defines the ethics, and I'm not trying to be snarky.

I'm not going to let this die. I'm just going to get my answers somewhere else.

Sad to see someone leave this forum but you only get out what you put in. There is a wealth of info in these forums already, and there are very few questions that havent been asked before. Have you went through the old posts to glean some info? Perhaps try rephrasing your inquiries to be a little more specific without a chip on your shoulder and you'll probably get some good answers.

Good luck

[DanL]

Snagging as defined in the current BC freshwater sportfishing regulations synopsis:  "snagging (foul hooking)… hooking a fish in any other part of its body other than the mouth. Attempting to snag fish of any species is prohibited. Any fish willfully or accidently snagged must be released immediately."

The way the regulations are currently written, if you are trying to hook a fish in the mouth, it is not snagging.  There is not currently a rule which says the fish must bite your lure or bait.  Until there is, I don't see any "grey area", flossing isn't violating any currently written rule.  That doesn't mean it is ethical.  That does mean it is legal.

this is only your limited interpretation. There is no 'legal finding' (as in no court has ruled on 'flossing') and DFO position is that if a fish is hooked in the mouth or even thereabouts, it's been legally hooked.

Interestingly I stumbled on an old copy of the BC fishing regs in the basement  and here is the definition of snagging from 1990-1992.



attempting to catch or catching a fish with a hook in any manner other than by inducing it to take the hook in its mouth.

The next regs I have is from 2000-2001 and it has the current definition as we now know it, so somewhere in those 10 years the wording changed. As to when, how, or why, I have no idea. But this whole 'fish dont have to bite to be legal' has not always been that way.

Its really too bad, as changing the requirement from having fish actively bite shifts the relationship from viewing the fish as an adversary to pursue and outwit to enabling viewing them as simply objects to be exploited by any means as long as it's 'legal' IMHO.

[VirtualFisher]

The best way to get people to change the way they fish is to show them that your chosen method can be successful.  People imitate success.  I have met a couple people on the river this season that have said they started fishing for salmon on the Fraser, and this is their first year on the V/C.  They literally don't know of another way to catch fish.  Show them.  Offer to share a bit of roe with them, or offer them a chum jig.  Show them how to rig up. 

I agree with you 100%.  Most of the time people don't know what is the right way of fishing.  Bottom bouncing is the only method my friend showed me when he introduced me to fishing.  We used 4/0 hook, 50 lb mainline,  and 30lb - 6 feet leader to fish for sockeye at the Fraser during the high sockeye return 2 years ago.  I snagged two fish in the first 5 casts and I kept the fish.  Everyone around me did the same thing.  On my next couple trips to Peg Leg, I noticed almost everyone was flossing fish.  I started questioning my friend about this fishing method, and he could not give me a proper answer, since that was the only way his friends showed him.

I used the same bottom bouncing method when I fished at the Vedder. On my first trip I was racially insulted and almost beaten up by 2 so called "ethical/true sportsmanship" fishers.  Only then I started doing some research and reading about proper ways of salmon fishing in the lower mainland and came across this forum.  There is endless but scattered information online, however it takes a lot of reading and searching to get to the right information.  This is very hard for those people whose English is second language.  It also depends on the mindsets.  Those who fish to relax and enjoy nature will approach differently than those who fish for meat. 

I think before issuing a fishing license to a person, he/she has to read and sign a simple wording form (prepared in different languages, in point form) introducing the right way of fishing and indicating flossing/snagging is illegal.  Hopefully this can bring awareness to people just get into fishing.

[RalphH]

I believe any method is ethical, as long as the fish is enticed to bite.

Why? What's so important about enticing a fish to bite that someone transforms injuring a fish & making it suffer to making the same endeavor ethical?

When bait fishing kills over 40% of trout caught in a catch and release situation is that ethical?

Do you just measure ethics by method or should impacts and outcomes be considered?

The next regs I have is from 2000-2001 and it has the current definition as we now know it, so somewhere in those 10 years the wording changed. As to when, how, or why, I have no idea. But this whole 'fish dont have to bite to be legal' has not always been that way.

Its really too bad, as changing the requirement from having fish actively bite shifts the relationship from viewing the fish as an adversary to pursue and outwit to enabling viewing them as simply objects to be exploited by any means as long as it's 'legal' IMHO.

Laws are arbitrary and subject to change - ethics are fluid and subject to change. Hungry people are seldom troubled by how they view a fish.

[96XJ]

Dufflayer, as someone who never contributes to this forum anymore seems as I don't live down south anymore and don't fish those tribs, I'll give you my two cents. I was raised on the Skeena and had the privilege of fishing the Lower Mainland tribs for a few years, and let's just say that it's a different world down there and they speak a different language.

I've had people blatantly accuse me of snagging while fishing my more preferred northern techniques, bottom bouncing with a 3 foot leader and twitching jigs without a float. The Fraser River sockeye fishery has created a cancer on the rivers down there that has honestly set an irreparable rift between fishermen based on something as simple as leader length. So understand as a Ferry Island guy, speaking to a Vedder guy and understanding his frustrations is like apples and oranges.

The fishery you speak of at Ferry Island was developed in the summer months for the typical non biting sockeye, it's a bastardization of fly fishing with flossing. Migrating sockeye hug the major riffle at the top of the island as it is close to shore and offers them the path of least resistance from the heavier current further out, the heavy sinktips slide through the run quickly and get down fast to the fish thus giving a quick easy lining. All salmon can be lined this way as most will travel a similar path up the river in a major river such as this, typically with the bigger fish preferring the stronger current and being further out.

As for wanting to know how to fish without lining, first step, ditch Ferry Island, or at the very least, move down the island and away from the riffle. Find places with softer current and focus on slower swings in tight to shore, there are lots of nice gradual sloping bars around Terrace that are ideal to have a type 3 sink tip with a slightly weighted fly. There are plenty of nice steelhead tribs around Terrace to hone your craft in the fall with almost certainty you won't floss a fish.

Anyway, I feel your frustration, I hope this helps clarify some things, if you want any more pointers or tips and don't want the southern BC hoard to hear, just PM me.

Nice to see someone actually answer the question instead of hammering on him for being a flosser , is that not the point of this forum ?