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[Noahs Arc]

 Reiber stated his belief on ethics, so I felt like stating mine. Feel free to state yours Ralph. Like he said, you may not have the same beliefs as others.
For the record, I only bait fish for salmon and steelhead. All other fishing is done with artificials unless I'm taking one of my small children to a pond.

I cannot remember the last time I had a deep hooked salmon or steelhead or a bleeder for that matter bait fishing. In fact, the only one I can recall I was using a spoon.

[Rieber]

Reiber stated his belief on ethics, so I felt like stating mine. Feel free to state yours Ralph. Like he said, you may not have the same beliefs as others.
For the record, I only bait fish for salmon and steelhead. All other fishing is done with artificials unless I'm taking one of my small children to a pond.

I cannot remember the last time I had a deep hooked salmon or steelhead or a bleeder for that matter bait fishing. In fact, the only one I can recall I was using a spoon.

From what you've written, I totally respect your chosen method of angling. There is nothing wrong with it as long as it is done within the current regulations - which there is absolutely no reason to even think otherwise. There is nothing wrong with anyone who wishes to use bait legally to catch fish. I've personally given up using bait when I go fishing - so what, who cares? I'm not going to preach or promote one method over another - but I will report if I witness illegal fishing. Everyone please enjoy the sport or angling activity as you see appropriate. Whether one chooses to follow the Law is their own choice - sometimes people make the wrong choices. There are consequences when incorrect choices are made.

[RalphH]

beliefs are not ethics, in particular personal beliefs are not ethics. More relevant is what thinking is involved in arriving at a personal ethical belief.

Ethics involve well founded standard of right and wrong, what people ought to do in terms of rights, rights, obligations, benefits to society, fairness, or specific virtues. Theses are both prospective, what not to do and ways they ought to act.

Secondly ethics is a branch of thought that deals with issues of right and wrong what actions are ethical or not and why. Most often ethics are situational and increasingly ethics involves broad principles on what to do in specific situations. Ethics are not set in stone.

As I have said before in a number of threads & discussion sport fishing is less and less consistent with what ethicists consider ethical. At a minimum we should all consider that before we spout off all self righteous about those who fish in ways we find distasteful or inconsistent with our values or those of our 'group'.

[typhoon]

When bait fishing kills over 40% of trout caught in a catch and release situation is that ethical?

Nice hyperbole. I fished for trout for 20 years using bait and rarely lost a fish. In fact I lose more fish fly fishing while anchored to loons than I ever lost using bait.
We did use techniques that were less likely to gut hook (unlike fly fishing boobies for example).

[Spawn Sack]

The OP is describing dipping, which is very short flossing that also results in a lot of snagged fish. It is common during high water, but also all the time in fast water areas like Tamahi rapids.

I think there are two classes of snaggers:
1. People that don't know any better. They learned from a snagger who told them that there is no other way to catch fish.
Unfortunately the act of flossing causes the bite to go off so only the flossers end up catching fish.
2. People that know better but don't care. Some meat fishers, lazy folks, guides who are under pressure to get their clients into fish.

Gotta agree with typhoon, some people just don't know what the heck they are doing, and were probably shown by someone that "this is how you catch salmon." I remember 8ish years ago when I move to Chiliwack I had never river fished. Some guys from work took me out salmon "fishing" in the Tamahai area. At the time I didn't know it, but we were dipping, in other words, snagging fish in the mouth. We released all fish not hooked in the mouth, and I thought it was an alright way to fish as long as the hook ended up in the fish's mouth.

Fortunately, after fishing with these bozos a few times I started reading some books, reading stuff on this site, steelhead fishing, and learning from my own trial and error. I now look back on those days and shake my head. I feel like an idiot, but I was new to river fishing and it's all I knew at the time.

I have not been back to a "dip hole" in about 6 years. I have zero desire to ever fish that way again. I'd rather go without fish or if I really wanted some, buy it from the store.

The odd time in the lower Vedder where I typically fish I'll end up fishing near someone doing the old cast, drift, R-I-P, reel in. Usually they're catching nothing, frustrated, while others near them are doing well with their short float set up. My usual practice is to walk over to them and politely ask them if they'd like some help with their set up. Most ppl say, yeah sure, I wanna catch some fish! After some gear mods and a quick explanation of how to fish some ppl are generally appreciative. And if they keep doing the damn RIP at the end of their cast I'll tell them that is completely unnecessary fishing this way, and is more likely to just scare the fish off.

I have encountered the odd person who did not take well to the unsolicited advice and told me to F off and mind my own business. No problem. Usually after they snag up for the 10th time, loose all their gear and catch no fish they pack up and leave.

As for the people who know how to fish properly but go snagging/dipping just to bring some fish home and post some pics on facebook? Shame on you. Especially if you are teaching your friends/kids that this is the proper way to float fish for salmon.

[Noahs Arc]

beliefs are not ethics, in particular personal beliefs are not ethics. More relevant is what thinking is involved in arriving at a personal ethical belief.

Ethics involve well founded standard of right and wrong, what people ought to do in terms of rights, rights, obligations, benefits to society, fairness, or specific virtues. Theses are both prospective, what not to do and ways they ought to act.

Secondly ethics is a branch of thought that deals with issues of right and wrong what actions are ethical or not and why. Most often ethics are situational and increasingly ethics involves broad principles on what to do in specific situations. Ethics are not set in stone.

As I have said before in a number of threads & discussion sport fishing is less and less consistent with what ethicists consider ethical. At a minimum we should all consider that before we spout off all self righteous about those who fish in ways we find distasteful or inconsistent with our values or those of our 'group'.

If personal beliefs are not ethics, then how does one even have a personal ethical belief?
This is getting way over my head. I'm just a dumb trucker who likes to catch fish. I've been commented on my superb C&R techniques numerous times ( mostly on the Wack during steelhead season)
I treat all fish I'm releasing with respect and handle carefully so i can impale it later maybe for my own greedy enjoyment

[Noahs Arc]

beliefs are not ethics, in particular personal beliefs are not ethics. More relevant is what thinking is involved in arriving at a personal ethical belief.

Ethics involve well founded standard of right and wrong, what people ought to do in terms of rights, rights, obligations, benefits to society, fairness, or specific virtues. Theses are both prospective, what not to do and ways they ought to act.

Secondly ethics is a branch of thought that deals with issues of right and wrong what actions are ethical or not and why. Most often ethics are situational and increasingly ethics involves broad principles on what to do in specific situations. Ethics are not set in stone.

As I have said before in a number of threads & discussion sport fishing is less and less consistent with what ethicists consider ethical. At a minimum we should all consider that before we spout off all self righteous about those who fish in ways we find distasteful or inconsistent with our values or those of our 'group'.

If personal beliefs are not ethics, then how does one even have a personal ethical belief?
This over analyzing is way over my head. I'm just a dumb trucker who likes to catch fish. 
I treat all fish I'm releasing with respect and handle carefully so i can impale it later maybe for my own greedy enjoyment and for survival of the stocks whether it be harchery fed or not.is that ethical? Honest yes. The bottom line is if you fish you enjoy impaling fish and dragging it Around a body of water before it gets so tired it gives up on life and submits. Is that ethical?

[RalphH]

Nice hyperbole. I fished for trout for 20 years using bait and rarely lost a fish.

It's not hyperbole it's science. There are dozens of studies including studies done here on the West Coast that confirm mortality can be well over 40% for rainbow, cutthroat, brook trout and bulltrout. Other species such as bass and walleye also exhibit far higher mortality than artificials.

If personal beliefs are not ethics, then how does one even have a personal ethical belief?

if it personal & not shared by most of society it's pointless. if it is shared but doesn't have a consistency with ethical principles - but rather is some silly rules - like when I went to grade school girls were not allowed to wear blue jeans - it's also pointless.

[Tangles]

It can't be only about the meat. I think lots of those "anglers" sumply don't know any better and reducing limits isn't gonna take them off the water. Look at Stave, people will BB all day just to get two decomposed spawners, then what about Steelhead flossing? It's quite popular believe it or not it's actually what they do in the States, corkies, wool and lead.

[Noahs Arc]

That's a generic statement if ever I've heard one. Have you ever actually fished in say Washington state?

[Spawn Sack]

It can't be only about the meat. I think lots of those "anglers" sumply don't know any better and reducing limits isn't gonna take them off the water. Look at Stave, people will BB all day just to get two decomposed spawners, then what about Steelhead flossing? It's quite popular believe it or not it's actually what they do in the States, corkies, wool and lead.

There is a difference between "true" bottom bouncing and fraser style flossing bottom bouncing. I have never tried the true style, but as I understand it there is some sort of weight (pencil, slinky, or whatever) that does "bounce" along the bottom. However, it my understanding that the leader is SHORT like if you were fishing with a float. I believe the purpose it to dance your offering along the bottom and entice a fish to bite your corky that is suspended off the bottom.

This differs from the type of bottom bouncing you see around here with a long (sometimes stupid long) leader that flosses the fish in the mouth.

I asked someone in Freds's years back why no one does the "true" bottom bouncing on the Vedder and I was told the bottom is generally so rocky/snaggy you would just lose gear every 2nd cast. Moreover, this style of bbing is suited for a gravel bottom generally free of snags.

Similarly, there is a diff between "proper" float fishing where the fish sees your offering and decides to hammer it, and "grip it and rip it" float fishing with a long leader, a rip at the end of the drift, clearly trying to floss/snag a fish not get it to bite.

[typhoon]

It's not hyperbole it's science. There are dozens of studies including studies done here on the West Coast that confirm mortality can be well over 40% for rainbow, cutthroat, brook trout and bulltrout. Other species such as bass and walleye also exhibit far higher mortality than artificials.

if it personal & not shared by most of society it's pointless. if it is shared but doesn't have a consistency with ethical principles - but rather is some silly rules - like when I went to grade school girls were not allowed to wear blue jeans - it's also pointless.

List one.

[Tangles]

so bouncing on the bottom is not a bottom bouncing, I think it's now all clear to me

@Noah
I've never had the opportunity to fish in Washington, but I was reading a book by an American author called "Drift fishing for Steelhead" and about a 1/3 way trough I realized there's no mention of floats anywhere, as well as not much else than spinning reels as far as reel tackle goes.
I realize though this is just a book though and doesn't represent the whole community, all I'm saying is according to this book and numerous magazines this IS a popular way of salmon/steelhead fishing down South.

[DanL]

"True bottom bouncing" if thats the term we are using now, can be useful in rivers that have very deep pools where float fishing is not practical without a slip float setup. The Vedder doesnt have too many sections like that so its not a required technique there. Back in the day my friend used to really well BB'ing ghost shrimp for steelhead in one or two deep Vedder pools.

[fishtruck]

When I was first exposed to fishing the Vedder back the late '80's, I was taught the pencil lead should lightly tap along the bottom using a 18" leader. If you were feeling heavy taps then you would need to shorten your float. Wasn't until a few years ago that I learned the short floating technique. Sometimes all one needs is a little nudge in the right direction with some good information.