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[blaydRnr]

"True bottom bouncing" if thats the term we are using now, can be useful in rivers that have very deep pools where float fishing is not practical without a slip float setup. The Vedder doesnt have too many sections like that so its not a required technique there. Back in the day my friend used to really well BB'ing ghost shrimp for steelhead in one or two deep Vedder pools.

unfortunately, "bottom bouncing" has become synonymous with the Fraser River meat fishery...a lot of people don't know it's been around since the '50s as a legitimate form of jigging used while surf fishing or while jigging off a boat over sand bars. This technique stirred up the sand which attracted predatory fish hence the term bottom bouncing.

[kingpin]

It's not hyperbole it's science. There are dozens of studies including studies done here on the West Coast that confirm mortality can be well over 40% for rainbow, cutthroat, brook trout and bulltrout. Other species such as bass and walleye also exhibit far higher mortality than artificials.

if it personal & not shared by most of society it's pointless. if it is shared but doesn't have a consistency with ethical principles - but rather is some silly rules - like when I went to grade school girls were not allowed to wear blue jeans - it's also pointless.

I'd like to read this study to see what the variables are . What size hook was used ? What bait ? Etc . It's no secret a tiny hook and a dew worm is gonna deep hook small trout. As far as salmon go ,  extremely rare in my experience to gut hook salmon , I've had it happen a few times over thousands upon thousands of fish and usually it's jack chinook .  I can count on one hand how many deep hooked steelhead I've had woth a couple thousand hooked . I've gut hooked a ton of bulls on flies , they are so predatory it doesn't matter what you use you will hook a few deep , the same goes for rainbows with dry flies or steelhead for that matter . If your trying to eliminate mortality stop fishing

[Novabonker]

I'll get the popcorn

[Rieber]

When I was first exposed to fishing the Vedder back the late '80's, I was taught the pencil lead should lightly tap along the bottom using a 18" leader. If you were feeling heavy taps then you would need to shorten your float. Wasn't until a few years ago that I learned the short floating technique. Sometimes all one needs is a little nudge in the right direction with some good information.

Right and then we got the hard plastic gob of roe - there was no soft gooey bob then.

Honestly, if I saw someone with pencil lead and an 18" leader I don't think I would batt an eye - I would look at his gear to see if he was honestly going old school.

But it was different then - you would "feel and feed" the offering to the fish. It really wasn't a swing or as we now term "flossing".

I'm still at a bit of a loss as to when flossing came in. I left here in the early 80's and returned in '96. Talk about massive change in fishing techniques Batman. I went down to Herling Island with my big 8' spinning rod set-up only to stand there scratching my head at the kilometer long line up of fishermen with monster 10'6" baitcaster set up and 8' leaders. Weird or What?

[Dave]

Right and then we got the hard plastic gob of roe - there was no soft gooey bob then.

Honestly, if I saw someone with pencil lead and an 18" leader I don't think I would batt an eye - I would look at his gear to see if he was honestly going old school.

But it was different then - you would "feel and feed" the offering to the fish. It really wasn't a swing or as we now term "flossing".

I'm still at a bit of a loss as to when flossing came in. I left here in the early 80's and returned in '96. Talk about massive change in fishing techniques Batman. I went down to Herling Island with my big 8' spinning rod set-up only to stand there scratching my head at the kilometer long line up of fishermen with monster 10'6" baitcaster set up and 8' leaders. Weird or What?

Good points Pat.  When I was a pup ( mid to late sixties,) one of the best anglers on the Vedder was a Fishery Officer named Dave Teskey.  He never used a float, always bottom bounced pencil lead on a short leader, used roe and fished deep water.  His favorite water was the abutment, just south of the Vedder Bridge.  This bugger caught a ton of fish.
I recall an early steelhead brood stock capture program in the upper Chilliwack, led by the CO of the time, Jim Rissling.  Teskey, myself, and a few other locals were fishing the Box Canyon in the closed to angling area; we (thinking we were hotshots) were trying to float fish water about 15’ deep with very poor success … Dave schooled us big time using his technique!!
For sure, bottom bouncing using leaders 16-18 " length is effective and as “ethical” as any other style of angling, imo. 

[Rieber]

I don't think I was on the river before 1970 - so Dave you've got a few more miles on the odometer than I do. 

Teskey, Rissling - could you imagine if they could see today's sh*t show on the river?
 
Honestly though, I do believe today is better than 2 even 5 years ago.

I do believe there has been positive progress - but maybe its is just because there are less salmon and the fall fishers are slowly giving up hope to snag a few for the freezer.

[Tylsie]

There is a difference between "true" bottom bouncing and fraser style flossing bottom bouncing. I have never tried the true style, but as I understand it there is some sort of weight (pencil, slinky, or whatever) that does "bounce" along the bottom. However, it my understanding that the leader is SHORT like if you were fishing with a float. I believe the purpose it to dance your offering along the bottom and entice a fish to bite your corky that is suspended off the bottom.

This differs from the type of bottom bouncing you see around here with a long (sometimes stupid long) leader that flosses the fish in the mouth.

I asked someone in Freds's years back why no one does the "true" bottom bouncing on the Vedder and I was told the bottom is generally so rocky/snaggy you would just lose gear every 2nd cast. Moreover, this style of bbing is suited for a gravel bottom generally free of snags.

Similarly, there is a diff between "proper" float fishing where the fish sees your offering and decides to hammer it, and "grip it and rip it" float fishing with a long leader, a rip at the end of the drift, clearly trying to floss/snag a fish not get it to bite.

what we call "True bottom bouncing" is called drift fishing in pretty much the rest of North America. It is often the go to method bottom rocky bottoms on rivers with rocky bottoms such as the C/V. It is just much, much more difficult to master than short floating. It is all done by feel; every rock, gravel patch, and log on the bottom. Then you have to learn to know what is a hit and what is bottom. Watching a float is just easier and can be just as effective sometimes. But to me, a slinky, a short leader, and corkie is the picture of winter steelheading. If I see a person successfully drift fishing I am impressed, not offended.

[RalphH]

List one.

https://henrysfork.org/files/Rob%20Blog/C%26R%20mortality%20review.pdf  page 2 Schisler  and Bergersen (1996) on rainbow trout with actively fished bait average mortality was 45.7% with passively fished bait it 78.3%


there are many many more dating back 40+ years

[RalphH]

But it was different then - you would "feel and feed" the offering to the fish. It really wasn't a swing or as we now term "flossing".

it was and is a swing

[Rieber]

it was and is a swing

Hmmm - well it seemed like the right think to do back then. Can't argue if it was a swing or not but there surely was a swing at the end of the drift/bounce. Now it's no longer the accepted method - I won't argue that either. For me that method is no longer what I prefer to use. Methods evolve, this one evolved into something ugly. We look at things differently now.

In the meantime - if my shoulder gets better before the season is gone, I might get out there with my switch rod and give the muddler a swing and tug.

[Zackattack]

I think people need to see the difference between snagging fish and flossing them.

When I was first fishing I used to think all flossers were scumbags as they are made out to be on these forums, but then after fishing a few rivers on the island and realizing that most of the locals indeed floss a lot of fish I began to have a different opinion.

Most of the locals were very friendly,  using short leaders (still long but were not talking 10 ft here) , and not ripping at the end of their drifts. Fish were all being hooked in the mouth and very few foul hooks...
Yet they were being flossed.

Of course the fish were NOT biting and being flossed, but right in the mouth as per regulations, and not being snagged.

I realize most of you are talking about the classic grip/rippers on the vedder and yes they are horrible because A) their rips at the end of every drift turn off the bite and B) many fish are foulhooked as a result of long leaders and ripping

I always short float but now realize that flossing is a way that many people fish on MANY rivers and and always have. I think the main issue is their ripping on every cast, long leaders on shallow rivers, and bouncing weights disturbing others and fish.

Anyways...