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Author Topic: Better know than double surgeons?  (Read 18755 times)

halcyonguitars

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Re: Better know than double surgeons?
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2016, 12:46:49 PM »

Well, I bought a 12lb roll or Seagurs, hopefully that will work better. I would have liked to go smaller, but with the prevalence of chum it seemed a better choice.

I will make a longer (say 30") butt section of 25lb with a loop at one end and the flouro tippet tied on with one of the above knots. If I need to replace the leader there will still be enough butt to snip and retie once or twice on scene before having to replace the butt.

So goes my thinking.

And a 10-12' leader for stripping for coho in frog water?
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RalphH

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Re: Better know than double surgeons?
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2016, 02:44:46 PM »

Are you using a sink tip, a poly tip or floating line?
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halcyonguitars

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Re: Better know than double surgeons?
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2016, 03:51:12 PM »

Floating line.

Fella at the spot suggested going without a sink tip, just flouro to the floating line.

Water only 4-6' deep...
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RalphH

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Re: Better know than double surgeons?
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2016, 06:28:02 PM »

ok - 10- to 12 is about right unless you are using a scandi line then more like 14 ft - using bead heads on the flies?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 04:07:57 PM by RalphH »
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"The hate of men will pass and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people!" ...Charlie Chaplin, from his film The Great Dictator.

halcyonguitars

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Re: Better know than double surgeons?
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2016, 07:21:09 PM »

I'll probably roll through the box, some will be head heads, some not...
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bigsnag

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Re: Better know than double surgeons?
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2016, 08:56:41 PM »

Loop to loop connection of tippets to leader are recommended by many well known anglers such as ......

Perfect example of NOT to believe everything one reads. 
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bigsnag

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Re: Better know than double surgeons?
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2016, 09:02:20 PM »

I use double or triple surgeon knots for attaching tippet to leader all the time with great success.

I use loop to loop connection often when I can (fly line to leader or tip, tip to leader, etc) but prefer a direct connection from the leader to tippet.

I believe the berkley vanish is your problem, I have had similar issues and gave up on the spool. Infact, after using a lot of fluorocarbon in various situations, the only thing I really use flouro for anymore is tippet when chironomid fishing. In that scenario I believe its less visibility characteristic and that it doesn't float is an advantage with such small flies being staticly suspended. For just about everything else, I don't think it is much if any of an advantage, considering the cost and finickiness with knots, over mono. In my opinion, when swinging or stripping a fly, as long as your mono leader is appropriately sized, they don't have much time to see it.
X2 on all issues.  However, I do use 8 lb Vanish for my main line in chironomid fishing and never had a problem.
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RalphH

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Re: Better know than double surgeons?
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2016, 04:08:32 PM »

Perfect example of NOT to believe everything one reads.

I don't believe this! ;D
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"The hate of men will pass and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people!" ...Charlie Chaplin, from his film The Great Dictator.

John Revolver

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Re: Better know than double surgeons?
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2016, 11:55:59 PM »

Blood knot is my go-too.  I can tie it super quick and I have 100% confidence in it.

Its all about confidence in my system when Steelheading.
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Spawn Sack

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Re: Better know than double surgeons?
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2016, 10:47:33 PM »

Hi,

Is there a better knot for tying your leader/Tippett to your butt section?

I was fishing with the the switchrod yesterday and kept having my leader snap off right at the surgeons knot next to the loop to loop connector at the butt.

This happened mostly from gentle snags on the bottom using an unweighted fly in shallow water. The line seemed to break really easy, seemingly way less tension than I would have expected would be needed to break line, especially as it was 14lb flouro.

My 2 cents. Get away from that damn fluorocarbon! Yes the fishing shops will have you convinced you need it. "what...you are not using fluorocarbon!? well there lies the problem!" Here is a spool of seaguar blue label that costs almost as much as the rod you just bought.

I was on the fluorocarbon bandwagon a few years back. Was convinced it would give me an edge over my buddies. All I did was bust off fish! I even went to the palomar knot which is supposed to be THE knot for flouro. Better, but that flouro is brittle!!! I should add I tried many brands of flouro. Maxima, Seaguar, Suffix, Berkley, and others. I dropped north of $100 bucks on leaders in one stop at the tackle shop! I ended up throwing the cheap stuff in the trash (Berkley Vanish) and traded the spools of "good stuff" to a buddy for some beer.

Back to mono leaders, I caught just as many fish, and busted off practically none. The ones I did bust off were from fishing a nicked leader (my fault).

Unless you are an advanced fly angler flouro is just going to cause you problems. Stick with a quality mono leader like Maxima UG, Berkely XT, and so on. It's all I use on the river and I know guys who are much more into the fly scene than I am and they only fish mono leaders on the river.

Similar to BNF861, I DO have some flouro I like for still waters for picky trout. The line does refract less light and IMO does help for picky trout in clear water. For rivers where your fly is swinging/stripping by? IMO flouro is unnecessary and likely to cause you more bad than good (knots busting).

For knots I like the blood knot but find it hard to tie on the river esp with cold hands. I like a double surgeons or triple surgeons. I'll use the double for thicker lines like 12-15lb, and triple for thinner like 6-10lb.

« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 01:17:48 PM by Spawn Sack »
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Fish Assassin

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Re: Better know than double surgeons?
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2016, 11:06:25 PM »

My 2 cents. Get away from that damn fluorocarbon! Yes the fishing shops will have you convinced you need it. "what...you are not using fluorocarbon!? well there lies the problem!" Here is a spool of seaguar blue label that costs almost as much as the rod you just bought.

I was on the fluorocarbon bandwagon a few years back. Was convinced it would give me an edge over my buddies. All I did was bust off fish! I even went to the palomar knot which is supposed to be THE knot for flouro. Better, but that flouro is brittle!!!

I finally said F it and went back to mono leaders. I caught just as many fish, and busted off practically none. The ones I did bust off were from fishing a nicked leader (my fault).



I couldn't agree more.
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halcyonguitars

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Re: Better know than double surgeons?
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2016, 02:21:51 PM »

Well, we'll see. I used an Albright to attach 12lb Seagurs to my 25lb butt section which I left at about 28". So far, untested by any fish:)

I do have lots of maxima so I'll bring that too in case of problems.
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RalphH

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Re: Better know than double surgeons?
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2016, 05:31:04 PM »

My 2 cents. Get away from that damn fluorocarbon!

I was on the fluorocarbon bandwagon a few years back. Was convinced it would give me an edge over my buddies. All I did was bust off fish! I even went to the palomar knot which is supposed to be THE knot for flouro. Better, but that flouro is brittle!!! I should add I tried many brands of flouro. Maxima, Seaguar, Suffix, Berkley, and others. I dropped north of $100 bucks on leaders in one stop at the tackle shop! I ended up throwing the cheap stuff in the trash (Berkley Vanish) and traded the spools of "good stuff" to a buddy for some beer.

Back to mono leaders, I caught just as many fish, and busted off practically none. The ones I did bust off were from fishing a nicked leader (my fault).

Unless you are an advanced fly angler flouro is just going to cause you problems. Stick with a quality mono leader like Maxima UG, Berkely XT, and so on. It's all I use on the river and I know guys who are much more into the fly scene than I am and they only fish mono leaders on the river.



+1
I own flouro but seldom use it.  Knots are a problem and overall it simply doesn't not hook anymore fish.

re:the blood knot check out some of the websites that test it such as yellowstone angler as it is one of the weaker line to line connections in common use. Same with the double uni
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 05:35:28 PM by RalphH »
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clarkii

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Re: Better know than double surgeons?
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2016, 07:33:50 PM »

My 2 cents. Get away from that damn fluorocarbon! Yes the fishing shops will have you convinced you need it. "what...you are not using fluorocarbon!? well there lies the problem!" Here is a spool of seaguar blue label that costs almost as much as the rod you just bought.

I was on the fluorocarbon bandwagon a few years back. Was convinced it would give me an edge over my buddies. All I did was bust off fish! I even went to the palomar knot which is supposed to be THE knot for flouro. Better, but that flouro is brittle!!! I should add I tried many brands of flouro. Maxima, Seaguar, Suffix, Berkley, and others. I dropped north of $100 bucks on leaders in one stop at the tackle shop! I ended up throwing the cheap stuff in the trash (Berkley Vanish) and traded the spools of "good stuff" to a buddy for some beer.

Back to mono leaders, I caught just as many fish, and busted off practically none. The ones I did bust off were from fishing a nicked leader (my fault).

Unless you are an advanced fly angler flouro is just going to cause you problems. Stick with a quality mono leader like Maxima UG, Berkely XT, and so on. It's all I use on the river and I know guys who are much more into the fly scene than I am and they only fish mono leaders on the river.

Similar to BNF861, I DO have some flouro I like for still waters for picky trout. The line does refract less light and IMO does help for picky trout in clear water. For rivers where your fly is swinging/stripping by? IMO flouro is unnecessary and likely to cause you more bad than good (knots busting).

For knots I like the blood knot but find it hard to tie on the river esp with cold hands. I like a double surgeons or triple surgeons. I'll use the double for thicker lines like 12-15lb, and triple for thinner like 6-10lb.

Know where you can use flouro.  For me, only thing I use for my subsurface presentations.  However of note.

I rarely use a tapered leader with it.  Only knots are double surgeons loops /non slip loop knot for loop connection to fly line and clinch knot/non slip loop for attachment to tippet ring or fly hook.  When swinging flies a tapered leader is a hindrance as the think part sinks slower then the thinner part.  In reality you should only have a two knot rig subsurface (one exception), aka tippet to fly line and fly to tippet.

When I do use a tapered leader withh flouro somewhere, it's my czech nymph rig.  Sighter to a flouro spacer, 1 foot sighter again and flouro leader.  tippet rings generally between  the leader, spacer and 1 foot sighter but at times I use a double surgeons, have no problems. 

Reasons to use flouro over mono.  Stiffer, better uv resistance, sinks faster, does not absorb water as much, less visible to fish  (should never be the main reason to go flouro).

For dries I use tapered nylon  leaders exclusively. Why? It doesn't sink.  Pretty much it.  I also don't need to be able to feel/sense hits like with a subsurface.

Never cheap out on tippet either.  We spend so much on rods, reels, fuel, line, that you should not put less then quality tippet or hooks on.  Avoid gear fishing line brands like suffix, berkeley, and maxima. The strength to diameter is horrid relative to fly tippet  Look at the 4lb suffix flouro and compare it too rio flouro flex 5x for instance.
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tburns

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Re: Better know than double surgeons?
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2016, 04:02:48 PM »

I've done a bunch of testing on loop to loop knots (double surgeons, perfection loop, triple surgeons and figure 8 loops) and found that for ease of tying and strength you should stick with a triple surgeon's.

Try it yourself.  Get a 2-3 foot piece of mono and tie the two loops you're looking to compare on both sides of the mono.  Use something smooth on each side (2 pens) to grab the loop and then pull apart.  The perfection loop pinches the line and snaps very easily.  figure 8 loops and triple surgeons are pretty comparable but triple surgeons are much easier to tie tidily.

So in short, use a triple surgeons for your loop to loop and then use a standing loop to attach to your fly. 

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