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[wildmanyeah]

Job losses? Sounds greedy.. low stocks returning could mean the end of the salmon and some people are concerned with rec openings so guides/shops can make money off these endangered fish? Sure commercial and fn get too.. its arguing over possibly the last of these fish in history at this point. And you dont really believe people wont bottom bounce if opened do you? Most people seem to give zero friggs about the fish. Money money money. It sucks they may lose their jobs but they can find another career.

I also have never really bought into the Job loss argument for the rec sector. Since rec fishing is a hobby and people tend these days to spend to their limit. It's more of a job shuffle to different hobbies then an overall loss to our GDP.

The only loss I can see to GDP is Americans not coming over the border to fish our waters as that is an actual gain to our economy. No Commercial Fishing also is a loss to our economy as fish get shipped out of country.

I guess you could argue that the Rec guys are going to go to another country to fish but I think that's a bit of a stretch.

[wildmanyeah]

DFO has very little control over what happens with the Fishery on the Fraser River. The decision is made by PSC and specifically the Chinook Technical Committee and for Sockeye and Pinks the Fraser River Technical Committee. http://www.psc.org/membership-lists/

This dates back to along time ago when a big slide happened on the Fraser river and the US gave canada a whole bunch of money to fix it in exchange to fishing rights. I believe they also gave money to build the fish ladders though hell gate. It seems as tho we have to pay for this now until the end of time.

Maybe some one older can refresh my history on this one?  https://www.loc.gov/law/help/us-treaties/bevans/b-ca-ust000006-0364.pdf It took Lester B. Pearson and the Secretary of State to get this done.  Great read

The the Chinook Technical Committee Though closed down the SEAK fishery for the fist time so that is a great move to protect Fraser river and Columbia fish. Alaska Fish and game did not have a choice and protested the closher.  http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/sf/EONR/index.cfm?ADFG=region.NR&Year=2017&NRID=2486

My dads first job as a Fishery Officer for DFO in the early 1980 was arranging a Canadian commercial fishery in the Yukon aimed at catching every single Alaska fish they could. These fish wars that accrued between DFO and Alaska Fish and Game resulted in the PSC being formed. http://www.psc.org/about-us/

The problem with fish management has always been the lack of science to back up decision making.

I could go on but I think I have ranted enough about this today

[chris gadsden]

Another letter to keep the conversations going.

I am writing to express my displeasure with the manner in which DFO is currently managing the recreational fishery on the Fraser river.
 
 
At the local Sport Fishing Advisory committee and at the SFAB we have been advocating for a rule change to Bar fishing when sockeye stocks of concern are in the river as we are absolutely confident that there would be virtually zero bycatch of sockeye and a significantly lower catch of Chinooks while providing an opportunity to fish . DFO has only placed road blocks up whenever we attempt to recommend  regulation that would allow us allow us to fish selectively when necessary.
 
Given the example provided by decisions made affecting sport fishing on the Skeena (See link and quote below)and the quoted DFO manager stating that it was closed not for conservation concerns but to avoid conflict. I find that reprehensible. Look at the example of The peacekeepers (see link below) on the Fraser a cooperative group of first nations and recreational anglers working together to resolve issues. Even with that in place we still can,t fish.
 
The potential conflict is only because DFO fails to take responsibility to manage finding it easier to remove one group from the river.
 
This is not about First Nations rights , we recognize aboriginal rights but  we do not believe the intent was for exclusivity. First Nations and there advocates are the same as us trying to protect what they believe is theirs.DFO has the difficult task of managing the resource in the interest of all Canadians where there are overlapping demands however it often seems the recreational fishing community are treated like a poor cousin when decisions are being made.
Quite frankly when there is no conservation concern  we should be fishing and if necessary, selectively. . The fact that DFO on the Skeena system and possibly on  the Fraser system chooses to allow one user group to fish and not the other without a conservation concern demonstrates to me the lack of will to effectively manage coincidental fisheries, First nations and recreational opportunities.
 
I recognize that the issue is complicated with the issues within the fisheries ranging from, developing an allowable catch limit and allocating it, habitat degradation,  hatchery closures due to budget cutbacks, lack of predator management, unregulated fishing, over fishing in international waters and a host of others.  You would think that DFO would be working to bring all groups together to help address and understand these issues
 
Recreational anglers donate thousands of hours on conservation projects and care deeply about the fish and the habitat but are often left out in the cold.
 
We truly do not want to be arguing over which group gets to kill the last salmon what we want is to be part of the solution to stock rebuilding and to share appropriately in allowable harvest.
 
 
Gerry Dewar
 
 
 

[Stratocaster]

I also have never really bought into the Job loss argument for the rec sector. Since rec fishing is a hobby and people tend these days to spend to their limit. It's more of a job shuffle to different hobbies then an overall loss to our GDP.

The only loss I can see to GDP is Americans not coming over the border to fish our waters as that is an actual gain to our economy. No Commercial Fishing also is a loss to our economy as fish get shipped out of country.

I guess you could argue that the Rec guys are going to go to another country to fish but I think that's a bit of a stretch.

FWIW, have a look at this study done by DFO about the Economics of the Rec and Commercial Sectors for Salmon allocation.

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Library/193109.pdf

[wildmanyeah]

FWIW, have a look at this study done by DFO about the Economics of the Rec and Commercial Sectors for Salmon allocation.

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Library/193109.pdf

IS this why the ocean is open to Rec fishing and the rivers are close? The study seems to focus on the value of the ocean rec fishery

[Stratocaster]

IS this why the ocean is open to Rec fishing and the rivers are close? The study seems to focus on the value of the ocean rec fishery

Perhaps.  I think they primarily focus on lodges as the main economic source since many of the customers are from South of the Border.  I guess the argument is that a local river angler spending money on gas, lunch, licenses, and fishing gear bring no net economic benefit to the country or province because he/she would have spent the money on something else if they weren't fishing.

[Tylsie]

Perhaps.  I think they primarily focus on lodges as the main economic source since many of the customers are from South of the Border.  I guess the argument is that a local river angler spending money on gas, lunch, licenses, and fishing gear bring no net economic benefit to the country or province because he/she would have spent the money on something else if they weren't fishing.

I disagree. Fishing and Hunting are my hobbies. If I can't fish the rivers here I will go some where I can. Be surprised at today's gas prices how few trips from Delta to Chilliwack or Squamish it takes to equate to a flight out. Say it costs me half a tank to drive my truck to Chilliwack, hit a few holes, and come back. That is about $70. Find a flight sale, and after not fishing every weekend in June, July, and August I can now fly to Panama for an all inclusive. They have some great fishing down there for dirt cheap. Yes Americans come here, but we also go other places. 

[wildmanyeah]

Because I had time!

[TNAngler]

DFO has very little control over what happens with the Fishery on the Fraser River. The decision is made by PSC and specifically the Chinook Technical Committee and for Sockeye and Pinks the Fraser River Technical Committee. http://www.psc.org/membership-lists/

This dates back to along time ago when a big slide happened on the Fraser river and the US gave canada a whole bunch of money to fix it in exchange to fishing rights. I believe they also gave money to build the fish ladders though hell gate. It seems as tho we have to pay for this now until the end of time.

Maybe some one older can refresh my history on this one?  https://www.loc.gov/law/help/us-treaties/bevans/b-ca-ust000006-0364.pdf It took Lester B. Pearson and the Secretary of State to get this done.  Great read

The the Chinook Technical Committee Though closed down the SEAK fishery for the fist time so that is a great move to protect Fraser river and Columbia fish. Alaska Fish and game did not have a choice and protested the closher.  http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/sf/EONR/index.cfm?ADFG=region.NR&Year=2017&NRID=2486

My dads first job as a Fishery Officer for DFO in the early 1980 was arranging a Canadian commercial fishery in the Yukon aimed at catching every single Alaska fish they could. These fish wars that accrued between DFO and Alaska Fish and Game resulted in the PSC being formed. http://www.psc.org/about-us/

The problem with fish management has always been the lack of science to back up decision making.

I could go on but I think I have ranted enough about this today

One point/counterpoint is that at least in the 80s and a little after, there was a Sockeye Commission that regulated everything sockeye related, at least commercially in the Sound and I believe also in the river.  There was no fishing until escapement levels had been reached and then the overage that could be caught were split 50/50 between WA and BC.  They would meet I think every day during the season, look at escapements, and establish fishing times for each group.  The WA side was split 50/50 between Native and Non-Native as well but those times were all scheduled through the commission.  If there was not proper escapement or some group caught too many fish, it got shut down hard.  My understanding is this commission no longer exists and there is little or no commercial fishing in WA on Fraser stock, planned at least.  I would imagine there is a lot less cooperation to reduce by-catch with the new set up.

[chris gadsden]

From FOC in answers to a number of letters written, some of what I posted above.
Dear Mr. Clapton:

 

Thank you for your August 9, 2017, correspondence to Rebecca Reid, Regional Director General, regarding Fraser River recreational chinook fisheries and your follow-up messages of August 15.  I have been asked to respond on her behalf.

 

Fisheries and Ocean Canada continues to be guided by the Allocation Policy for Pacific Salmon, which establishes clear priorities for fisheries management. The Policy confirms that the primary objective in fisheries management is the conservation of Pacific salmon stocks, followed by government obligations to provide harvest opportunities for First Nations food, social and ceremonial (FSC) requirements and treaty obligations.

 

Decisions for fisheries management actions for Fraser chinook are strongly tied to Fraser sockeye in-season information. At this time, the very low abundance of Fraser sockeye returns continues to be a key constraint in fisheries directed on chinook, and the overall number of chinook salmon returning to the Fraser River also appears to be below expectations to date.

 

Continuation of the closure of Fraser River recreational fisheries is a result of this year’s extremely poor in-season returns of Fraser sockeye and the extremely limited sockeye impacts available to date, and the need to provide for priority access to chinook for First Nations FSC harvest opportunities. First Nation fishing opportunities this season have been and continue to be severely constrained, and their harvest of both chinook and sockeye are well below harvest targets.

 

We appreciate that some anglers choose to fish selectively; however, where regulations are not in place, DFO Conservation and Protection (C&P) staff are unable to take enforcement action, and C&P must manage staff resources to ensure monitoring and enforcement of existing regulations is prioritized.

 

I also advise that there have been ongoing discussions between DFO and members of the

Sport Fishing Advisory Board (SFAB) Chinook/Coho Working Group to provide weekly updates on in-season management status and provide an opportunity for continued dialogue.

                                                                                                                                       

The Department will continue to review and monitor in-season information on a regular basis to inform future recreational fisheries management decisions. Further information on possible recreational fishery opportunities will be included in weekly Fraser River Panel (FRP) updates.

 

With respect to the question on recreational data for 2015 and 2016 in your most recent correspondence, I will follow up via a separate letter as it will take some time for follow-up.

 

We acknowledge the very challenging circumstances this year and appreciate your efforts to help communicate our current situation with the recreational community.

 

Yours sincerely,

Jennifer Nener

Director, Salmon Management and Client Service

Pacific Region

 

cc:  Rebecca Reid

       Angela Bate

 

 

On behalf of Jennifer Nener

Charis Hon

Administrative Officer

Salmon Management & Client Services

Fisheries & Oceans Canada

 

Phone: 604 666 9523

Fax: 604 666 5855

 

 

 

 

 

[wildmanyeah]

 We appreciate that some anglers choose to fish selectively; however, where regulations are not in place, DFO Conservation and Protection (C&P) staff are unable to take enforcement action, and C&P must manage staff resources to ensure monitoring and enforcement of existing regulations is prioritized.

 

Bottom bouncers and flossing have creating such damage to the Recreation fishing group. This had been a complaint from DFO for along time without the ability in the ACT to specific leader lengths they can't enforce selective fishing methods.

In order to change the Act the current Liberal government would need to modify it.  Really if you want things to change these letters would be better of sent to your MP begging them to modify the BC Sports Fishing act So that DFO can specify leader lengths.  My dad took this to Ottawa when he was in charge of the fraser valley about this and they did nothing.

[fic]

If it could be changed, what would a good leader length restriction be? If it was say 18", couldn't people still bottom bounce with pencil lead and an 18" leader? It would talk longer but still work?

Success rate goes way down with 18 inches.  Guys are casting 17 feet leader length in order to get a good chance on the Fraser.

[Rodney]

Still discussing about leader length lol... If only you understand why the river really is closed.

There are lots of excellent fisheries around this province beside the Fraser to enjoy in the summer. My suggestion to all is to take advantage of those.

[wildmanyeah]

I understand that, which is why I asked, so they could still bounce with a short leader then? Success rate low or not people would be out there bouncing still if 18 inches could still work. Sounds to me like there would have to somehow be a bar fishing only regulation implemented, not just leader restriction.

Yeah but the rate of incidental catch of sockeye would most likely be small enough that the PSC would be okay with it.   You're right they may need to add additional things to the act to be able to specify methods.

bottom line is that it is not in there now and since the Act needs to be modified in order to do that. The Federal government would have to table the legislation.

[wildmanyeah]

Still discussing about leader length lol... If only you understand why the river really is closed.

There are lots of excellent fisheries around this province beside the Fraser to enjoy in the summer. My suggestion to all is to take advantage of those.

Yeah we all know why it's closed because the sockeye and chinook returns are horrible and the NATIVES need their take. You don't want to come out and say it because there does not need more animosity towards them from the rec guys. We don't need rec guys out there throwing bouncing betties at them while they attempt net their take with their non selective gillnets.

And its BS about the mesh size too any good native knows if you hang a tight chinook net you will intercept all the sockeye.

I agree and I prefer it stays closed if it protects some fish (Low Chinook numbers). Tons of other fishing to do!

And yet I can fish off the mouth of the fraser for Pinks and Chinook and hatch coho! it's not about protecting the Chinook