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[Tylsie]

well perhaps that what we get for being flaming head racists most of the time...

on a lighter note - it looks like the FN in river fisheries wrap up on the 31st  & none are scheduled for the week ending Sept 10th; which is a good sign for the possible opening of the river for the long weekend.

It has been my experience that there has been racism on both sides. It is just that one side has the backing of the Federal Government and the other doesn't. The argument against sport fishing went out the window when the DFO changed from no sockeye by-catch allowed to sockeye by-catch is to be minimized but accepted. You can't get blood from a stone, and simply put there are no more salmon. The money that is spent on trying to enforce the B.S. rules would be better spent buying certain groups Alaskan Fish and closing the River entirely. A similar proposal of buying beef is already being discussed, and even encouraged by certain groups, following the wildfires in the Cariboo.

The simple truth is that the Fraser River Salmon stocks have been decimated. Sport Fishing had nothing to do with it, but it is the easiest target. Unfortunately, sport fishers are the primary groups trying to reverse the trend. Commercial operations will just move on. First Nations are, if it is possible, are even more divided than we are. There really is very little hope, and it is disappearing every day.

The only real question is, when all we have are memories of sport fishing the Fraser, and stocks are still declining who will the DFO blame then?

[Bavarian Raven]

It has been my experience that there has been racism on both sides. It is just that one side has the backing of the Federal Government and the other doesn't. The argument against sport fishing went out the window when the DFO changed from no sockeye by-catch allowed to sockeye by-catch is to be minimized but accepted. You can't get blood from a stone, and simply put there are no more salmon. The money that is spent on trying to enforce the B.S. rules would be better spent buying certain groups Alaskan Fish and closing the River entirely. A similar proposal of buying beef is already being discussed, and even encouraged by certain groups, following the wildfires in the Cariboo.

The simple truth is that the Fraser River Salmon stocks have been decimated. Sport Fishing had nothing to do with it, but it is the easiest target. Unfortunately, sport fishers are the primary groups trying to reverse the trend. Commercial operations will just move on. First Nations are, if it is possible, are even more divided than we are. There really is very little hope, and it is disappearing every day.

The only real question is, when all we have are memories of sport fishing the Fraser, and stocks are still declining who will the DFO blame then?

]

They'll still blame "us".

[TNAngler]

In the end, sports fishing is a large group of uncombined separate groups and individuals.  Both commercial and FN are organized with both having loads of money at stake.  Their organization and the effort they go in to getting their way is going to out weigh anything the sports fishing will be able to put together.  Until the gov't grows a pair and does what it takes to put in real conservation measures, policing everything and not letting special interest groups act out just because they don't like the outcome, nothing is going to change.  Not flossing rules, weight rules, leader length, or any other restriction to be put on sports fishing. 

[wildmanyeah]

Good luck

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/canadas-move-to-keep-fishing-chinooks-is-short-sighted/article36109935/

"Moreover, three First Nations along the Fraser River are suing the Government of Canada for allowing sport and commercial fisheries to continue targeting at-risk Chinook populations returning to the Fraser, when First Nations' needs for food, social and ceremonial purposes are not being met as required under the Constitution and DFO's allocation policy. Both of these obligations recognize that ensuring First Nations' food objectives are the first priority after salmon conservation objectives are met. But being in-river fisheries, First Nations are last in line when the fish arrive."

[RalphH]

It has been my experience that there has been racism on both sides. It is just that one side has the backing of the Federal Government and the other doesn't. The argument against sport fishing went out the window when the DFO changed from no sockeye by-catch allowed to sockeye by-catch is to be minimized but accepted. You can't get blood from a stone, and simply put there are no more salmon. The money that is spent on trying to enforce the B.S. rules would be better spent buying certain groups Alaskan Fish and closing the River entirely. A similar proposal of buying beef is already being discussed, and even encouraged by certain groups, following the wildfires in the Cariboo.

The simple truth is that the Fraser River Salmon stocks have been decimated. Sport Fishing had nothing to do with it, but it is the easiest target. Unfortunately, sport fishers are the primary groups trying to reverse the trend. Commercial operations will just move on. First Nations are, if it is possible, are even more divided than we are. There really is very little hope, and it is disappearing every day.

The only real question is, when all we have are memories of sport fishing the Fraser, and stocks are still declining who will the DFO blame then?

Do you understand the concepts of systemic and institutionalized racism? These are what has marked all our social and governmental relations with FN people. Most other people in Canada who are not FN have not faced this ever in their lives. FNs have dealt with this for a century and a half.

I have lived and fished in this area for over 50 years. The ill will from the recreational anglers to FN has been there all that time. I can't remember a time when anglers I would just bump into on stream would treat me to a racist rant about native nets or gaffs and how FN rights had to be totally revoked. It didn't just turn up because sockeye were opened up as a recreational fishery - something the sport community lobbied for by the way.

It is ridiculous to suggest that the recreational community has no blame for the current state of Fraser salmon stocks or that other groups are not trying to do something to reverse the trend. For a start the strength of the Shushwap River chinook stocks which is what is mostly coming into the Fraser now is primarily due to active management by FN people who live in that river drainage.

The recreational sector are major consumers of salmon up and down the coast and not just in the river. While the total take isn't big the take for Fraser and other stocks is significant.

More important is it's pretty clear that climate change is now perhaps the biggest factor in the sharp decline of our interior Fraser fish stocks - sockeye, coho, Chinook & steelhead. They have been dfalling like dominoes.

To me it's clear CC is a problem associated with our way of life. All of us bear that responsibility.

What's more recreational angling is a major source of CC to the extent it now focuses extended travel, destination angling, high powered water craft and high powered vehicles required to tow them.

Recreational anglers are very little the source of the solution more a good chunk of the problem.

[Robert_G]

Do you understand the concepts of systemic and institutionalized racism? These are what has marked all our social and governmental relations with FN people. Most other people in Canada who are not FN have not faced this ever in their lives. FNs have dealt with this for a century and a half.

I have lived and fished in this area for over 50 years. The ill will from the recreational anglers to FN has been there all that time. I can't remember a time when anglers I would just bump into on stream would treat me to a racist rant about native nets or gaffs and how FN rights had to be totally revoked. It didn't just turn up because sockeye were opened up as a recreational fishery - something the sport community lobbied for by the way.

I think someone needs to explain to you what true racism is. However, I'm more interested in teaching you what 'discrimination' is.
Discriminating is treating someone one way but treating someone else another way because of their race, age, gender, etc, etc.
As long as there is discrimination, there will be racism. It seems to me in the decade or more that I've read your posts that you will never understand that.

A truly fair and just country is run well when citizens are treated with complete equality with equal chance and opportunity of what that country can offer.
We are all Canadian citizens. The sooner we all live that way...the better.
When we are all treated equally and special interest groups fade away, you will see racism become much less than it is today.
It's true, there will always be a few born losers who will hate someone because of their color of skin, etc, etc....but those are the types of people who hate the whole world anyways.....just ignore them. However, when one demographic sees another demographic get extra special treatment because of political pressure to compensate for something that happened 24000 years ago, the race that goes without...is going to be upset....and that leads to a 'situational' type of racism.....meaning someone who isn't 'naturally' racist may show racial expressions because of the unfairness that is happening around them. It's human nature to react when you feel hurt or treated unfairly. Labeling that person a racist is just as bad as being racist.

It is ridiculous to suggest that the recreational community has no blame for the current state of Fraser salmon stocks or that other groups are not trying to do something to reverse the trend. For a start the strength of the Shushwap River chinook stocks which is what is mostly coming into the Fraser now is primarily due to active management by FN people who live in that river drainage.

The recreational sector are major consumers of salmon up and down the coast and not just in the river. While the total take isn't big the take for Fraser and other stocks is significant.

More important is it's pretty clear that climate change is now perhaps the biggest factor in the sharp decline of our interior Fraser fish stocks - sockeye, coho, Chinook & steelhead. They have been dfalling like dominoes.

To me it's clear CC is a problem associated with our way of life. All of us bear that responsibility.

What's more recreational angling is a major source of CC to the extent it now focuses extended travel, destination angling, high powered water craft and high powered vehicles required to tow them.

Recreational anglers are very little the source of the solution more a good chunk of the problem.

Please don't ever be a science teacher or my lawyer. You don't know the first thing about science, and if you were a lawyer, you'd probably defend the wrong person. I have a hard time even believing you are a recreational fishermen. Stand up...grow a pair, and help stick up for us like most of us are doing here.

As for the Climate change....its true the fish are dying in the ocean...but science has not proven its because of climate change. What HAS been proven is that the ocean is sick and dying fast. Our oceans are on borrowed time...and salmon are NOT going to come out of it well....if at all.

[RalphH]

Robbie you need to talk to your barber about a flame retardant hair dressing.

I think someone needs to explain to you what true racism is.
A truly fair and just country is run well when citizens are treated with complete equality with equal chance and opportunity of what that country can offer.

Please don't ever be a science teacher or my lawyer. You don't know the first thing about science, and if you were a lawyer, you'd probably defend the wrong person. I have a hard time even believing you are a recreational fishermen.

Well I am but it's not the only thing that drives my brain.

I don't stand up for racism.

What do you know about equality or justice other than squat? Ever read Plato's Republic or something like similar?

You also don't get it that most lawyers work for money.

A truly fair and just country is run well when citizens are treated with complete equality with equal chance and opportunity of what that country can offer.

YEE HAH! Just like our wonderful country has offered FN peoples for 150 years not to mention Chinese, Asian Indians, Women and Gay people. The residential school system was a perfect example of truly fair and complete equality. Your sport fishing inconvenience is a trifle by comparison.

As for the Climate change....its true the fish are dying in the ocean...but science has not proven its because of climate change. What HAS been proven is that the ocean is sick and dying fast. Our oceans are on borrowed time...and salmon are NOT going to come out of it well....if at all.

As for telling me I know nothing about science ...you've just proven you know squat about science. Did I say science proves climate climate change is a fact? No because I have some understanding of how science works though though you have squat. However you seem to get it that our oceans may not be able to support salmon populations in the near future. Yet you get so excited over that fact FNs have too much control (for your liking) over a vanishing resource. Why? Oh it's that R word again(?) or maybe it's just you like to squabble over the last slice of pie.

[Blood_Orange]

However, when one demographic sees another demographic get extra special treatment because of political pressure to compensate for something that happened 24000 years ago, the race that goes without...is going to be upset....and that leads to a 'situational' type of racism.....meaning someone who isn't 'naturally' racist may show racial expressions because of the unfairness that is happening around them. It's human nature to react when you feel hurt or treated unfairly.

This makes a lot of sense. The people who aren't "naturally" racist become "unnaturally" racist due to the government's treatment of the FN peoples. That explains why European settlers were so darned racist towards the FN people over the last few hundred years: all that special treatment. The FN got to attend residential schools (exclusive private institutions), they got their own Department of Indian Affairs (although they didn't get to work there), they got time away from their families (sometimes they even survived to see them again), not to mention free moving services (on to the reservation), and an exemption from all taxes (wait, that one's not real).

On a serious note, treating people equally is not the same as treating them fairly. Depends on the person, their abilities, their needs, and their history. I don't treat my dad the same as my 6 year old nephew because they're different people. I still try to treat them both fairly, though. Could this way of thinking be extended to larger groups of people?

[Tylsie]

Do you understand the concepts of systemic and institutionalized racism? These are what has marked all our social and governmental relations with FN people. Most other people in Canada who are not FN have not faced this ever in their lives. FNs have dealt with this for a century and a half.

I have lived and fished in this area for over 50 years. The ill will from the recreational anglers to FN has been there all that time. I can't remember a time when anglers I would just bump into on stream would treat me to a racist rant about native nets or gaffs and how FN rights had to be totally revoked. It didn't just turn up because sockeye were opened up as a recreational fishery - something the sport community lobbied for by the way.

It is ridiculous to suggest that the recreational community has no blame for the current state of Fraser salmon stocks or that other groups are not trying to do something to reverse the trend. For a start the strength of the Shushwap River chinook stocks which is what is mostly coming into the Fraser now is primarily due to active management by FN people who live in that river drainage.

The recreational sector are major consumers of salmon up and down the coast and not just in the river. While the total take isn't big the take for Fraser and other stocks is significant.

More important is it's pretty clear that climate change is now perhaps the biggest factor in the sharp decline of our interior Fraser fish stocks - sockeye, coho, Chinook & steelhead. They have been dfalling like dominoes.

To me it's clear CC is a problem associated with our way of life. All of us bear that responsibility.

What's more recreational angling is a major source of CC to the extent it now focuses extended travel, destination angling, high powered water craft and high powered vehicles required to tow them.

Recreational anglers are very little the source of the solution more a good chunk of the problem.

You assume a lot about for me for never having met me. Anyways... I did over simplify the situation but thought I had corrected it when I mentioned the discord among First Nations. Instead of Racism I should of said Nationalism. I am referring to the ongoing general animosity, "poaching"*(see Note at bottom), and fishing arguments that go on among the First Nations themselves. There is no love loss among some on the Katzie and Kwantlen or Sto-lo and Yale Bands. As such there is often questionable fishing decisions made and I will leave it a that. No point in asking for any official documentation, I am just friends with a lot of people. This is also on top of the organized drift net fisheries that seem to pop up when a sport fishing opening is allowed.

I also said that sport fishers at the PRIMARY group, not the only group. The Chehalis Band locally has done great things in the past. As you mentioned, the Shuswap has to. The Okanagan Sockeye Fisher is basically in part exclusively to First Nations. But, out of the hundreds and hundreds of groups that have work tirelessly to enhance spawning grounds, plant eel grass, restore estuaries, raise salmon, increase herring survival, and much more you will find that at there heart is usually a group of dedicated sport fishers.

And yes, I do have a hard time believing that sport fishing has been the cause of the salmon collapse. But the only way to determine that is to close down all other forms of fishing and see what happens. That will never happen however, nor should it. There is no denying that climate change is affecting salmon, that does not absolve the DFO from their clear mismanagement. We must all work together, all user groups.

*in this context I am using "Poaching" as a term for one Band claiming another band is fishing without consent in there traditional territory and not the more generic fishing illegally or in a closed season

[Robert_G]

This makes a lot of sense. The people who aren't "naturally" racist become "unnaturally" racist due to the government's treatment of the FN peoples.

I did not say that. Please don't twist my words.

[Robert_G]

What do you know about equality or justice other than squat? Ever read Plato's Republic or something like similar?

Understanding equality and justice is quite simple. If you can't understand the basics about it, then no one can help you.

YEE HAH! Just like our wonderful country has offered FN peoples for 150 years not to mention Chinese, Asian Indians, Women and Gay people. The residential school system was a perfect example of truly fair and complete equality. Your sport fishing inconvenience is a trifle by comparison.

Actually you are an expert at something.....side-stepping a comment when you have no answer.

As for telling me I know nothing about science ...you've just proven you know squat about science. Did I say science proves climate climate change is a fact? No because I have some understanding of how science works though though you have squat. However you seem to get it that our oceans may not be able to support salmon populations in the near future. Yet you get so excited over that fact FNs have too much control (for your liking) over a vanishing resource. Why? Oh it's that R word again(?) or maybe it's just you like to squabble over the last slice of pie.

Again....how does what I say show that I don't understand science?  Science is showing us again and again why and how bad our oceans are dying....and for the record, you did say that 'it was pretty clear' that climate change is the biggest factor in the decline of our salmon stocks...maybe you should go back and read your own post. You aren't that far off of saying that climate change decimating our salmon runs is a 'fact' and you know it.

[RalphH]

I did not say that. Please don't twist my words.

Robbie you twist my words.Turnabout is fair play. Stop whining.

Understanding equality and justice is quite simple. If you can't understand the basics about it, then no one can help you.

Actually it’s something you are an expert at.....side-stepping a comment when you have no answer.

Robbie, agree to disagree we must.

Equality is a more complicated subject. The tactic of simplifying to the lowest possible level distorts it in the extreme.
Our society creates inequality in many ways; race, class, money, family, education, ability, sex and more. How does one fix all this and create a society where “citizens are treated with complete equality with equal chance and opportunity of what that country can offer”? We certainly haven’t done this in 150 years of being a nation or in the time before that, far from it.

We do not in this country have equality of access to resources like fisheries. Access to other resources and property are more restricted than our access to fisheries.

People in the angling community have to come to grips that they are more motivated by self - interest than they can admit. To argue that FN fishing rights have to be rescinded is simply stupid and will not happen. As  I like to say suck it up and get used to it.

Again....how does what I say show that I don't understand science?  Science is showing us again and again why and how bad our oceans are dying....and for the record, you did say that 'it was pretty clear' that climate change is the biggest factor in the decline of our salmon stocks...maybe you should go back and read your own post. You aren't that far off of saying that climate change decimating our salmon runs is a 'fact' and you know it.

As for who knows what about science. There you are, a pot calling the kettle black. I did not say science proves climate change I said: “ To me it's clear CC is a problem associated with our way of life.” That’s an expression of opinion, nothing more.

As for “What HAS been proven is that the ocean is sick and dying fast.”. It has? You offer this statement as fact without any substantiation. What you apply to me you have to apply to yourself to be fair and equitable, which you are not.

Besides if you need some help from a science teacher you should go back to high school and get your GED. One thing you might learn is what ‘proof’ is in science. It’s not what you seem to think it is.

[Robert_G]

Robbie you twist my words.Turnabout is fair play. Stop whining.

Do you or can you even read? That comment was directly quoted from Blood Orange. It had nothing to do with you.

Equality is a more complicated subject. The tactic of simplifying to the lowest possible level distorts it in the extreme.
Our society creates inequality in many ways; race, class, money, family, education, ability, sex and more. How does one fix all this and create a society where “citizens are treated with complete equality with equal chance and opportunity of what that country can offer”? We certainly haven’t done this in 150 years of being a nation or in the time before that, far from it.

I'm going to leave it at this because you simply will never understand how racism and discrimination work. When you discriminate in a way that favors one group or individual over another, the one on the losing end feels cheated....In turn out of natural human nature...feeling cheated can ( but not always ) lead to racism. It happens all the time...like right now in our salmon fisheries. People see one group getting the entire pie while being left hungry. It's very easy to be resentful towards that group.

We do not in this country have equality of access to resources like fisheries.

Finally you see the problem. Now if you could just figure out that not having equal access to salmon fisheries is 100% perfect example of what 'discrimination' is we might get somewhere in this discussion.

People in the angling community have to come to grips that they are more motivated by self - interest than they can admit. To argue that FN fishing rights have to be rescinded is simply stupid and will not happen. As  I like to say suck it up and get used to it.

Funny how you don't say anything about the Natives being selfish. I was taught at a young age that when you have 'lots'...you share...and when you have 'just a little' you share also. Those type of actions and thinking are what diffuse things like racism and discrimination. The natives have every right to say that want to share the remaining fish and ask DFO that we all get a shot at it. They haven't done it nor will they ever. If that isn't the self - interest that you are talking about...then what is?

As for who knows what about science. There you are, a pot calling the kettle black. I did not say science proves climate change I said: “ To me it's clear CC is a problem associated with our way of life.” That’s an expression of opinion, nothing more.

That is not what you said. Do I really need to quote you again? You said and quote

"More important is it's pretty clear that climate change is now perhaps the biggest factor in the sharp decline of our interior Fraser fish stocks - sockeye, coho, Chinook & steelhead"

As for “What HAS been proven is that the ocean is sick and dying fast.”. It has? You offer this statement as fact without any substantiation. What you apply to me you have to apply to yourself to be fair and equitable, which you are not.

Are you for real? Are you oblivious to what has been leaking out of Japan for several years. The research and conclusions are all over to read....and that is just one example out of hundreds that you can find very easily that document our oceans are sick and dying. Any scientist who disagrees with the fact that our oceans are sick and dying would be committing intellectual suicide.

Besides if you need some help from a science teacher you should go back to high school and get your GED. One thing you might learn is what ‘proof’ is in science. It’s not what you seem to think it is.

Not that I should respond to a stupid comment like that, but I have the equivalent of 5 years university.

[RalphH]

Ok Robbie G, without reference to the fisheries issue please explain how racism racism & discrimination really work & how you will make it go away tomorrow so we can all live your happy land?

...oh I forgot, it's Fukushima leakage that is killing the ocean & it's scientifically proven by a schizoid Radio talk show host! Congrats man you've got the 5 years of university to develop the critical thinking to get that far. At least you figured out it wasn't Killery Clinton that killed the North Pacific!