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[Tylsie]

Oh, but there is, Rieber, there is.

Let FNs manage all salmon fisheries. Let them do the research, conduct counts, and let them issue commercial and recreational licenses and quotas, keeping the proceedings to invest into better managing of the resources. They did it quite successfully for centuries before European conquerors arrived and messed things up.

I cannot tell if you are serious. As I said in another thread, there is even more discord among First Nations then there is among people on this Forum. The simple Fact of the matter if that there is probably more people in Surrey alone then there was in all of BC at any given point pre-contact. Combined with countless kms of untouched spawning grounds the First Nations did no nothing to manage salmon, they didn't have to. (yet there was still lean years) Simply put, the DFO needs to step up the plate in all regards, do their jobs and put salmon First. The one constant that every court decision has agreed upon since the beginning is that conservation trumps everything. Selective Fishing techniques are quite easy to obtain no matter the group if only it was enforced.

But back to the topic at hand, this is not an illegal fishery. I have seen several people target Sturgeon with Bar rigs and be successful, though roe works better than a spin and glo. Many other ethnicities make delicious soups out of Pike minnow, white fish and other course fish that some find unpalatable. If a salmon is caught by chance then so be it, but they are not breaking the law in anyway and more sportfishing opportunities will only enhance the public interest. That is a good thing. I will not be attending as I will be at a funeral in Prince George that day, but think I may head down towards Fort Langley tomorrow and see up from the apple trees is still producing.

[blaydRnr]

If this is true then that's well played by the First Nations.

Looks to be an interesting stand-off. Looks like First Nations has had enough of the mismanagement of the resource and have decided F/N will decide what's going to happen now.

Let's not paint the kettle black....First Nations share in the mismanagement of this fishery. I don't know how many times in past years where I've witnessed FN's netting and discarding mortally wounded male salmon because they were only after roe, this especially true when harvesting chum. Selling of there catch (illegally) even when there were closures....very unceremoniously and total self indulgence of their special privileges.

True conservation and legitimate concerns over a species' survival, does not allow political correctness to take precedence. Any arguments opposing that idea is nothing more than self serving and mute.

[Rieber]

Let's not paint the kettle black....First Nations share in the mismanagement of this fishery. I don't know how many times in past years where I've witnessed FN's netting and discarding mortally wounded male salmon because they were only after roe, this especially true when harvesting chum. Selling of there catch (illegally) even when there were closures....very unceremoniously and total self indulgence of their special privileges.

True conservation and legitimate concerns over a species' survival, does not allow political correctness to take precedence. Any arguments opposing that idea is nothing more than self serving and mute.

I believe you are absolutely correct. In order for the FN (species) to survive, they need their supply of Salmon. They need to take advantage of their Treaty and be given the right to manage what they have legally negotiated and been granted. If that means selling some of their harvest to purchase other items needed for their survival then so be it.

The culling of a fish catch is no different than brush piles at a logging site landing. No different than the tailings at a mine site - these are all spoils of harvesting a resource. Yes the FN have found an opportunity for selling roe from Pink or Chum salmon and at that stage of the spawn cycle, the males have little food value. But be certain that the critical mass of returning salmon would have gone through the system and that cycles required return number would have been approximately met. 

You are 100% correct, I can't argue or oppose that idea. FN definitely hold a share in the mismanagement and they will need to hold a bigger share in the recovery of this resource. You can point a finger of blame at FN, but in your hand of judgment, you also hold at least three fingers pointing at yourself and others behind you. BlydRnr - when I use the term "you", I don't mean you literally. "You", in this case, is everyone other than FN and that includes me - I used to blame FN 100% - I was wrong.

It's good that we can blame whomever we want. That means there is still something worth fighting for. There is still a hope of recovery. Once the salmon are gone, there is no point blaming anyone because it won't matter any more - once the salmon are gone, they're gone.

So who's going to catch the last Salmon?

[RalphH]

I cannot tell if you are serious. As I said in another thread, there is even more discord among First Nations then there is among people on this Forum.

You know this is an apples and oranges comparison. How many people regularly post on this forum? A few dozen? The BC population of FN people approaches a quarter million.

The simple Fact of the matter if that there is probably more people in Surrey alone then there was in all of BC at any given point at contact

The population of Surrey today probably exceeds the population of every European city at contact so again what point are you making with such pointless analogies?

So who's going to catch the last Salmon?

Me, I won the lottery. The rest of you have to stay home now.

[Tylsie]

You know this is an apples and oranges comparison. How many people regularly post on this forum? A few dozen? The BC population of FN people approaches a quarter million.

The population of Surrey today probably exceeds the population of every European city at contact so again what point are you making with such pointless analogies?

Me, I won the lottery. The rest of you have to stay home now.

It is not a false analogy when someone claims that before contact First Nations "managed" salmon stocks efficiently. Simply put, the lower population and very limited industrialization meant that First Nations of the time were incapable of decimating salmon stocks. Things have changed. To give one First Nations control over the already dwindling population would do nothing to stop the decline. I do not think over fishing is what has killed salmon. I believe it is the massive urbanization of there spawning streams, the pollutants going into the river, the destruction of ocean habitat (eel grass, kelp, food). I do believe that over fishing will be the death knell but that sport fishers don't legally have that ability. Non selective fishing methods running all day and night on the other hand...

Ralph, I appreciate your commitment and strong beliefs. We may disagree on some things but over all we want the same thing. Send me a pic of the last salmon! Hope its a doozy!

[clarki]

Ralph, I appreciate your commitment and strong beliefs. We may disagree on some things but over all we want the same thing. Send me a pic of the last salmon! Hope its a doozy!

And that is how you disagree, with class

[RalphH]

It is not a false analogy when someone claims that before contact First Nations "managed" salmon stocks efficiently. Simply put, the lower population and very limited industrialization meant that First Nations of the time were incapable of decimating salmon stocks. Things have changed. To give one First Nations control over the already dwindling population would do nothing to stop the decline. I do not think over fishing is what has killed salmon. I believe it is the massive urbanization of there spawning streams, the pollutants going into the river, the destruction of ocean habitat (eel grass, kelp, food). I do believe that over fishing will be the death knell but that sport fishers don't legally have that ability. Non selective fishing methods running all day and night on the other hand...

Ralph, I appreciate your commitment and strong beliefs. We may disagree on some things but over all we want the same thing. Send me a pic of the last salmon! Hope its a doozy!

Ok and you know this how?

be honest, you are making an assumption.

In some circumstances they were quite able to decimate a salmon stock however they had powerful social conventions that tended to prevent it.

[Tylsie]

Ok and you know this how?

be honest, you are making an assumption.

In some circumstances they were quite able to decimate a salmon stock however they had powerful social conventions that tended to prevent it.

I could be mistaken, but I believe you mistaking my use of the word "stock" for "runs". It was quite possible for certain runs in some streams to be destroyed, and I am sure they were! Heck, mother nature does it all the time. But for the entire stock (ie almost every single river, stream, and creek that contained salmon in the province) to be negatively to some degree as is the case today would require modern equipment, chemicals, and the increased population. That is what we are talking about today, the complete collapse of pacific salmon as whole.

Social constructs had nothing to do with it. Unless First Nations in BC are extremely unique from the their neighbours to North, East, and South (as well as similar civilizations around the world) and showed such remarkable restraint to only take enough to get themselves through to the next Spring Equinox and the return of the Chinook they would take as many salmon as the could possibly preserve and store. This is not a social structure, this is basic survival. The same as First Nations in Washington, Oregon, Alaska, and the Yukon openly admit and are proud of as it allowed them to survive the low return years, extreme fire seasons, blizzards in May, and everything else. No species will allow itself to starve so that another may survive. Humans included, no matter how altruistic some claim to be.

But this thread is about the Protest Fishery. I will not be responding again unless there is anything I feel I can add to that topic.

[RalphH]

Fair enough, but you brought it up. Much of what you are saying regarding FN people in BC, particularly at or before contact seems based on a lack of knowledge and a lot of assumptions.  As for me, I have a university level academic background in subject. Their societies were very sophisticated and very close to the early societies of the middle east that we like to call 'civilized'. In certain respects they had a better life than the average person in ancient Sumeria or Egypt.

Cheers

[dennyman]

So sad that it has come down to this, but with Salmon stocks so low there are no easy answers. Unless meaningful solutions are put forward to deal with dwindling Salmon stocks, it will be very hard to reverse this downward spiral in the future.

[steelheadfreak]

So as of tomorrow, you can fish for pinks in the S Thompson. As well chinooks are open in the S. Thompson...........The closer to sports fishing for both these species on the Fraser due to low numbers is a giant crock of crap.

[psd1179]

So as of tomorrow, you can fish for pinks in the S Thompson. As well chinooks are open in the S. Thompson...........The closer to sports fishing for both these species on the Fraser due to low numbers is a giant crock of crap.

Because people cannot catch many there:)

[Easywater]

I think the problem is if they open the river to recreational pink fishing, they will have to open it for commercial fishing too. FN ceremonial comes first, then they allow rec/comm at the same time.

While the rec sector can take tens of thousands of pinks, commercial fishing can take a few hundred thousand.

I'm not sure if they can allow rec fishing without opening the comm fishing.

[RalphH]

they have done it before. I think an opening for the lower Fraser has to wait for the PSC meeting either this afternoon or tomorrow. Still we may have to wait past the weekend.

[DanL]

I'm not sure if they can allow rec fishing without opening the comm fishing.

I think they did in 2015.  I recall there was some small pilot/test commercial opening but went poorly so that was it for the commies while the recs got a later opening. Memory's a bit vague so I'm sure someone will clarify the details if I'm wrong.

Logically though even a limited sport opening could have significant benefit for that sector. Theoretically even a short opening of the Fraser with a limit of one pink would allow lots of people to go out and get some benefit from the fishery but the total harvest would be like a rounding error as far as a potential commercial take is concerned.