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Author Topic: Bass in the vedder?  (Read 27967 times)

iblly

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Re: Bass in the vedder?
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2019, 02:45:46 PM »

Were any bass caught during the pikeminnow derby this year ?
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chris gadsden

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Re: Bass in the vedder?
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2019, 09:09:31 PM »

Yes.

RalphH

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Re: Bass in the vedder?
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2019, 08:34:15 AM »

Sockeye and kokanee populations in Shuswap and Osoyoos are stream spawners. Cultus I believe is primarily in lake beach spawners.
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adriaticum

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Re: Bass in the vedder?
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2019, 12:16:03 PM »

Sockeye and kokanee populations in Shuswap and Osoyoos are stream spawners. Cultus I believe is primarily in lake beach spawners.

I believe I've heard from a friend who fishes Shuswap that they are also lake spawners.
Maybe a mixed bunch.
I don't know how they decide where to spawn
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RalphH

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Re: Bass in the vedder?
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2019, 12:35:03 PM »


I don't know how they decide where to spawn

They each pull a number when they enter the lake and the number corresponds to a spawning location; it's a lottery. LOL!

Seriously though most Shuswap sockeye spawn in a stream; Adams, Seymour River, Eagle River Shuswap,... even the Salmon have  a sockeye spawning run. Most salmon regardless of species return to the stream they were born in. It's somewhere on the order of 90%+ for the most part.
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"The hate of men will pass and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people!" ...Charlie Chaplin, from his film The Great Dictator.

adriaticum

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Re: Bass in the vedder?
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2019, 12:53:54 PM »

They each pull a number when they enter the lake and the number corresponds to a spawning location; it's a lottery. LOL!

Seriously though most Shuswap sockeye spawn in a stream; Adams, Seymour River, Eagle River Shuswap,... even the Salmon have  a sockeye spawning run. Most salmon regardless of species return to the stream they were born in. It's somewhere on the order of 90%+ for the most part.


I was just reading some info and I think you are right. Shuswap are river spawners, what my friend probably saw was dead fish and he assumed they spawned there but they washed downstream most likely.
I wonder when there is a stream upstream of the lake they spawn in the stream and when there is not, they spawn in the lake.
But I can't find any info about that.
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clarki

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Re: Bass in the vedder?
« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2019, 11:56:35 PM »

I don't know how they decide where to spawn.

I wonder when there is a stream upstream of the lake they spawn in the stream and when there is not, they spawn in the lake.

Each "run" of sockeye has a unique genetic code specific to its watershed that allows it to flourish.

For example it is generally true that sockeye spawn in a river and the newly hatched fry migrate downstream to rear in a nursery lake for a year before migrating to marine waters. However, take, for example, Weaver Creek sockeye. The newly hatched fry migrate downstream through Weaver Creek and Morris Creek to the Harrison River, hang a left, and migrate UPSTREAM to rear in Harrison Lake. Or the sockeye that spawn in the Harrison River Rapids. The fry of that spawn  migrate the Fraser River estuary shortly after hatching and actually rear in the estuary, not a lake. I'm sure there are many other examples that don't fit the norm.  For example, lake spawning sockeye in Cultus that Ralph referrred to. (Interestingly, I also read that Harrison Rapids sockeye first migrate up to Harrison Lake and spend some in the depths of the lower lake before dropping back to the river to spawn)

In my dog eared copy of "The Run of the River" author Mark Hume writes about how this unique genetic code makes it difficult for biologists to re-introduce sockeye into a system after it has been extirpated. His example is the sockeye of the Upper Adams River. The Upper Adams had a massive run of sockeye that was extinct by the early 1950's. From the mid 1950's to the 1980's, biologists transplanted millions upon millions of eggs from similar systems, with negligible adult returns. He wrote "In the Upper Adams, biologists are working to rebuild a system that was completely wiped out. All the sockeye stocks of the Upper Adams are extinct. The Fraser River slides and the logging flash-dam had destroyed not just a run of salmon, but a unique genetic code. The code to unlock the timing of Adams Lake had been erased from nature's memory bank"

He also writes about the sockeye of Karluk Lake in Alaska where biologists were trying to rebuild a run that was destroyed by overfishing, from 5M+ in the 1880's to 0.5M in the 1960s. After decades of rebuilding failure, they realized that the key wasn't putting more fish on the spawning grounds, but rather the key lay in Karluk Lake itself and the timing of fry emergence. They learned that Karluk stock was comprised of 20 separate groups of sockeye "The groups spawned at different times and the timing of the fry emergence was perfectly synchronized to the forage production in the lake" Overfishing had reduced these 20 groups to just 3 or 4 and "enhancement efforts had concentrated propagating those groups. The result was that the fry arrived in the lake in a few great lumps causing over competition for food at some times and leaving the lake lightly used at others. The fish were out of synch with the lake and the result was poor survival for fry"

In the 1980's the Upper Adams biologists switched to transplanting stocks from the nearby Momich-Cayenne system "hoping to find fish that were similar enough to re-establish an Upper Adams genetic code"  Very modest returns resulted and a DFO biologist noted "If success is measured by the creation of even a small population, adapted to Adams Lake watershed environment and capable of providing seed for further expansion, then these transplants were successful. The seeming unsuccessful transplants attempts in early years may have been important in establishing a genetic base from which survival can be enhanced..."

On a side note, I quickly reviewed a 2003 paper on the Upper Adams, and to put it simply, the jury was still out. I couldn't find anything more recent.

So, I went WAY overboard in my reply (like Spawn Sack overboard :)) but, to summarize, spawning is determined by a unique genetic code for a particular watershed.

At the very least, I enjoyed reading The Run of the River again :)









« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 12:00:03 AM by clarki »
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Dave

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Re: Bass in the vedder?
« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2019, 10:42:33 AM »

Good post clarki.
Buck and I were involved in those Upper Adams transplants, and they were successful.  Unfortunately, Upper Adams sockeye co -migrate with other summer runs, like the much more abundant Quesnel and Chilko stocks. I don't remember the year but 30k were expected back to the UA; they were decimated in the mixed stock commercial fishery and to my knowledge, never recovered.
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adriaticum

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Re: Bass in the vedder?
« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2019, 12:04:45 PM »

Thanks clarki for the detailed reply.
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adriaticum

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Re: Bass in the vedder?
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2019, 12:24:55 PM »

Would Shuswap and Osoyoos lakes fit the bill?

Kind of, with some differences. Shuswap is a large lake, transient for most salmon and it's not that busy. In some spots it's busy but nothing compared to Cultus.
Osoyoos is probably a better example, although the lake is 5 times bigger than Cultus.
The salmon have returned in good numbers after extinction.
Is it a success? We will see.
Will it ever be a salmon run without hatcheries pumping fish into it?
Probably not. Osoyoos lake is warm too.
Cultus is a pond really and its located an hour drive from the zoo.
I am skeptical that Cultus sockeye will ever be a thing.
But hope I'm wrong.
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RalphH

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Re: Bass in the vedder?
« Reply #55 on: July 04, 2019, 01:39:04 PM »

I don't think the Ok salmon were ever extinct though they had dropped below 2,000 adults in the 90s. The hatchery was opened in 2014 and is intended to extend the range of the fish into Skaha and above. At this point there can't be more than a year class or so of adult returns. Most of the recovery happened before that and had to do with in stream improvements and allowing salmon to ascend into Vaseaux Lake and above.
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"The hate of men will pass and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people!" ...Charlie Chaplin, from his film The Great Dictator.

wildmanyeah

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Re: Bass in the vedder?
« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2019, 06:55:30 PM »

good year for bass fishing?

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clarki

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Re: Bass in the vedder?
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2019, 09:55:24 AM »

Nothing I like more than seeing a big o' pile of dead BC bass and pumpkinseed. Not thrilled to see a couple of NPM in the mix though...

The title indicates he caught these in Suicide Creek, I'd be interested to know if in the stream  itself, in Nicomen Slough, or in the sloughs/streams immediately west of Suicide/Norrish that hook into Hatzic.

Not wanting to steal his honeyhole, just to add my bass culling prowess :)       
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adriaticum

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Re: Bass in the vedder?
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2019, 10:02:40 AM »

Are talking about Norrish here?
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RalphH

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Re: Bass in the vedder?
« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2019, 10:11:40 AM »

many folks refer to that access spot off the Hwy#7 as Suicide (Norrish) Creek. I doubt bass would move into the creek itself. That LM bass at the top of the photo looks to be a good size as IME the PMs don't normally get the coloration until they are over 12 inches.

Everybody wants to slaughter bass ... what about carp? In parts of the US flyfishing for carp has just exploded in popularity. Carp are invasive and they 'root' for food creating quite a mess and loads of turbidity. I think the reg that allowed bow fishing for carp was repealed in the last synopsis. Scared too many of us snowflakes off the slough banks.
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"The hate of men will pass and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people!" ...Charlie Chaplin, from his film The Great Dictator.