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[RalphH]

If it’s killing them care to explain why the couple hundred broodstock caught steelhead throughout the province that are caught primarily on bait and held for months have a mortality rate of basically 0

simple - they cull the ones less likely to survive. Bleeders don't go into the holding tanks. The brood stock info has been recognized to have been biased in this manner for at least 20 years.

[avid angler]

simple - they cull the ones less likely to survive. Bleeders don't go into the holding tanks. The brood stock info has been recognized to have been biased in this manner for at least 20 years.

Man you don’t have damn clue. You think they murder wild steelhead if they aren’t going to make it? You are really something else. I literally spoke with the chilliwack hatchery staff to ask what their yearly losses were. He said in the past few seasons they lost one fish. It jumped out of the tank and sustained injuries and died a few days after the incident.

[RalphH]

So what... the bleeders etc are not taken to the hatchery and put into the tanks so they would experience little or no mortality.

The 2nd issue is like so many you rely on the best case survival rates to support your position but ignore cases such as trout taken on roe which have far worse outcomes - like 30 to 50% mortality.

[avid angler]

So what... the bleeders etc are not taken to the hatchery and put into the tanks so they would experience little or no mortality.

The 2nd issue is like so many you rely on the best case survival rates to support your position but ignore cases such as trout taken on roe which have far worse outcomes - like 30 to 50% mortality.

No one is catching bleeder steelhead. It’s so rare to see.
If you actually caught more then a handful a season like every other idiot you would know that. Yes bait caught rainbow trout have a high mortality when caught on bait. Especially when caught on gear targeting larger fish.

I honestly can’t wrap my head around you. You talk about sports fishing like it’s the devil itself and the reason for collapses far and wide. But then turn around and say that when nets were taking thousands of ifs a year that it wasn’t effecting overall returns. Your position on pretty well everything fishing related  is so my friend backwards and outright stupid that sometimes I swear your just trying to mess with people.

[avid angler]

Also Ralph your contradicting yourself again. You said they cull the fish that won’t make it, are they killing them or just not bringing them to the hatchery? Which is it?

[RalphH]

Also Ralph your contradicting yourself again. You said they cull the fish that won’t make it, are they killing them or just not bringing them to the hatchery? Which is it?

Cull: verb; to select from a large quantity

I suggest you have a loom at: http://ospreysteelhead.org/archives/TheOspreyIssue43.pdf

pages 14 to 16

Bob Hooton on published data from the BC Steelhead Brood stock collection mortality data:

The  best  available  sets  of  hooking mortality  data  for  steelhead  were  collected  during  the  1980s  on  Vancouver Island.    Those  data  have  frequently been  quoted  out  of  context  and  misapplied  in  British  Columbia  and  else-where.

 Largely  ignored  in  subsequent interpretation  and  application  of  those results were the following:1.  The  brood  stock  collection  mortality figures were minimal because:a.  They  included  only  fish  retained  and delivered  to  a  holding  facility,  not  fish that  were  occasionally  released  at  the point  of  capture  because  they  were bleeding  from  hook  penetration  and  it was judged they stood a greater chance of  survival  in  the  wild  than  if  handled and  confined  in  artificial  environments associated with transport and holding.b. They did not include fish that died in holding more than 24 hours after being captured.c.  They  did  not  include  the  occasional mortally  hooked  hatchery  fish  harvested  (legally)  by  the  brood  stock  collection crew. d. The data fail to acknowledge the higher  standard  of  fish  handling  exhibited by  the  trained  fisheries  professionals involved relative to that expected from"average" anglers. 

you might also look for The Wild Steelhead Coalition publication Catch and Release Impacts on Wild Steelhead: What we know and what we don't know.

There you will find,  that at least in Washington State where they kept proper records brood stock mortality varied from 9% to 23% in some cases.

[RalphH]

Aaron why would we not include other sport fish species in the discussion? Lot's of trout, Bulls and salmon are caught fishing with roe. Most data I have seen suggest those species experience higher release mortality than steelhead.

[RalphH]

if you are not aware of those studies, many of which are getting towards 50 years old then maybe you should look. Most were done in streams and rivers.

A lot of people also still fish with bait in streams, sloughs and rivers where they catch and hook trout char and salmon.

You can find a summary in the  Hooton article for which I provided a link above:

Data  available  from  various  hooking mortality studies involving a variety of  species  throughout  North  America offer  instruction  for  local  situations.The  feature  common  to  almost  all  the applicable  hooking  mortality  investigations on salmonids is that the use of bait results in the highest incidence of hooks penetrating  critical  anatomical  areas(e.g.  gills,  esophagus,  heart).    That result has been described for coho, chinook,  Dolly  Varden,  Arctic  char,    summer and winter steelhead, resident rainbow  trout,  resident  and  anadromous cutthroat trout and  landlocked Atlantic salmon.    The  higher  the  incidence  of hooking in a critical area, the higher the mortality   rate.      Another   consistent observation  was  that,  when  all  three gear types (bait, artificial lure, fly) were examined,  the  mortality  rate  was  highest with bait, followed by lures, followed-by flies.  Baited hooks produced mortality  rates  that  were  three  to  nine  times higher  than  when  artificial  lures  were used.    Studies  where  flies  were  also examined   normally penetrated  only  the  periphery  of  the jaws or mouth.

[buck]

Having been involved with collecting steelhead brood stock at the Chilliwack Hatchery for 30 years mortality rates were extremely low.  During that time frame we handled approximately 2100 fish which were caught, handled and transported to the hatchery.  The number of bleeders were almost negligible.
All brood stock caught by anglers were transported  to the hatchery. None were released as you have suggested. Some deeply hooked fish (line cut and hook left in fish) survived. After about 1 or 2 weeks in holding we would find the hook lying in the holding pond. Overall mortalities were were about 4-5 percent annually with most occurring later in holding and just prior to spawning. There was no culling of fish for size or physical condition. They all went to holding.

[RalphH]

Thanks Buck. I am not suggesting anything other than people read the segments of the article by Bob Hooton I quoted above or read the entire article

Four to five percent is consistent with what he estimates for professional brood stock programs. Winter steelhead Catch and release using mortality indicate  somewhat higher rates but generally not out of line with good c&r management practice.

This is not always the case and more often not the case depending on the species of fish.

I'd also like to say this part of the discussion isn't about the Vedder Chilliwack, it's brood stock program or about banning roe or bait.

[Rodney]

After about 1 or 2 weeks in holding we would find the hook lying in the holding pond.

Thanks Buck, finally someone who I know worked closely in the program is able to provide solid information.

This part I find interesting. Any idea how that happens? Does the hook get passed through the system or just popped out from the mouth?

So 4~5% mortality, looking at 2 to 3 fish from the 70 broods collected per season. Any particular cause of death that stands out?

[clarki]

On a related note, why do many Region 1 streams have a year round bait ban? (Quote: Bait ban: applies to all streams of
Region 1, all year, with some important exceptions.)

I'm curious, when was this ban implemented and the reasoning behind it? How is Region 2 different from Region 1 in that a bait ban is present on Vancouver Island and not the Lower Mainland? 

[RalphH]

well according to Bob Hooton's chronology of BC Steelhead regulations, the general ban has been in place since 2001.

The lack of a bait ban is a Fraser Valley thing as many streams on the North Shore, Squamish watershed and Harrison Watershed from the lake up have a bait ban. Why them and not many rivers in the valley or the LM?

[avid angler]

There’s way more wild summer run populations in region 1 would be my guess.

[MetalAndFeathers]

well according to Bob Hooton's chronology of BC Steelhead regulations, the general ban has been in place since 2001.

The lack of a bait ban is a Fraser Valley thing as many streams on the North Shore, Squamish watershed and Harrison Watershed from the lake up have a bait ban. Why them and not many rivers in the valley or the LM?

Because most rivers in the LM without a bait ban are factory hatchery kill rivers?