Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[sumasriver]

I have no confidence in the snorkel counts done currently. Talking to the guys saying they saw no fish in osborne, only a handful in limit and in low clear mid March.

Are you drunk ?   Snorkel counts are the most accurate way to count fish in the river.

[avid angler]

Are you drunk ?   Snorkel counts are the most accurate way to count fish in the river.

My apologies for hurting your feelings in the other thread. Sorry but when there’s 50+ fish visible with polarized glasses in a closed pool below a hatchery and they only see 8 from swim counts it makes me question the effectiveness of the snorkel counts on the chilliwack system. I think when viewing conditions are good the fish in all the big pools are hiding in the deepest parts of the run
Where seeing bottom is difficult. In the skinner water a lot of fish probably scram long before the snorkeler is even aware any fish was ever there.

PS my numbers I quoted were from
What the swimmers told me personally in those two particular pools. Not saying the only saw that many in the entire upper and mid river.

[sumasriver]

Do some research

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2400.2011.00794.x

https://www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs_int/int_gtr307.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/229978242_Snorkelling_as_a_method_for_assessing_spawning_stock_of_Atlantic_salmon_Salmo_salar

https://www.fws.gov/arcata/fisheries/reports/technical/2012%20TR%20Juvenile%20Chinook%20salmon%20snorkelling%20feasibility%20study.pdf

[redside1]

Without the hatchery on the Vedder, there would be no steelhead fishery here in 2020. That is an undeniable fact.

how is this undeniable?
The province let's people fish steelhead in many place with returns that are less than 200 fish some places even less than 100 fish.
So there would still be a steelhead fishery , just not a retention fishery.

 

[redside1]

Sorry but when there’s 50+ fish visible with polarized glasses in a closed pool below a hatchery and they only see 8 from swim counts it makes me question the effectiveness of the snorkel counts on the chilliwack system. I think when viewing conditions are good the fish in all the big pools are hiding in the deepest parts of the run
Where seeing bottom is difficult. In the skinner water a lot of fish probably scram long before the snorkeler is even aware any fish was ever there.

PS my numbers I quoted were from
What the swimmers told me personally in those two particular pools. Not saying the only saw that many in the entire upper and mid river.

I think this is why a tagging program of some type is very helpful when doing snorkel survey's.
one can easily take how many have been tagged vs how many were seen in a survey and come up with numbers that are reasonably close to what's out there.

[avid angler]

I think this is why a tagging program of some type is very helpful when doing snorkel survey's.
one can easily take how many have been tagged vs how many were seen in a survey and come up with numbers that are reasonably close to what's out there.

I completely agree.

[Robert_G]

how is this undeniable?
The province let's people fish steelhead in many place with returns that are less than 200 fish some places even less than 100 fish.
So there would still be a steelhead fishery , just not a retention fishery.

How many people are fishing the Gold this winter? Historically it had one of the largest runs of wild winter steelhead anywhere in the province. If it was hatchery enhanced, there would probably like the Vedder, still be some fishing allowed on it. Without the hatchery, I'm confident the Vedder would be closed like the Gold is.

[Robert_G]

how is this undeniable?
The province let's people fish steelhead in many place with returns that are less than 200 fish some places even less than 100 fish.
So there would still be a steelhead fishery , just not a retention fishery.

Also, the overall run size isn't what counts. I know of many small wild steelhead streams that historically only have 200 fish total...or less. But that is what the capacity of those systems are. I've had 10 fish plus days on them. Many of those streams are less than 2 hours from anywhere in the LM.

I won't tell you where they are, but I can tell you that pretty much all of them have gone from historically (50-200) down to (extinct to less than 20 fish). For those reasons, I no longer target them. I actually am surprised they are still open for catch and release.

As for the Gold, that river was consistent in having 3000-4000 fish each winter (correct me if my #s are off), but there's no way pressure is going to be allowed on a river like that when we're down to 200 fish.

I think the Chilliwack/Vedder has been as high as 8000-10000 in the best years (again....correct me if my #s are off), so if the Vedder went down to 400 fish.....with no hatchery....I guarantee you it would be closed to C&R fishing. Way too much pressure on that river for those numbers. The hatchery is the ONLY thing keeping us on that river right now....period.

[firebird]

I think this is why a tagging program of some type is very helpful when doing snorkel survey's.
one can easily take how many have been tagged vs how many were seen in a survey and come up with numbers that are reasonably close to what's out there.

I believe the plan is to first confirm the logistical feasibility of completing a minimum of 4 snorkel floats per year. If after a few years the results are positive, then they will begin a tagging program to calibrate the snorkel so that results can be compared between floats and between years (the results of the tagging program can be applied retroactively to the first few years). Year 1 seems to have been mostly succesful - the only issue was too much clay runoff from a snowmelt on a warm day. A report should be available in the near future.

[RalphH]

the Gold River has certainly had it's ups and downs over the years though the winter returns are lower than ever it's certainly did not have 3000 to 4000 fish 'consistently'.

Last estimates for the C/V from the snorkel counts 15 to 20 years ago was more like a total of 4,000 with a split of about 50/50 for wild and hatchery fish. It may have been higher in the way back when.

While the Gold winter fish have declined to next to nothing this is not true for the summer fish which are doing ok. Maybe the summer fish benefit from lake (Muchalat) and canyon (The Heber) habitat that is not available to Gold river winter runs?

It was discussed in some of the PSF youtube videos (previously posted a link) that species such as coho & some chinook stocks that have yearlings that spend a winter or more in their home streams have a bottle neck survival pattern. The fry to parr survival bottleneck has been noted for the Thompson for example. Perhaps with excess logging and extreme weather patterns there is a loss of stream over wintering habitat

[spoiler]

in regards to the early run CV Steelhead, what if the hatchery still collects the early run brood stock but doesn't clip the smolts and release them from the upper river then just use hatchery Steelhead for hatchery fish brood stock?
thoughts anyone?

[Wiseguy]

in regards to the early run CV Steelhead, what if the hatchery still collects the early run brood stock but doesn't clip the smolts and release them from the upper river then just use hatchery Steelhead for hatchery fish brood stock?
thoughts anyone?

There is not enough early run wild stock left to take brood from. Here’s an example- I used to fish the Englishman river. Beautiful little river with a locked gate at the access rd to the river. I would ride my bike to the sweet spots on the river as it was a long walk. Often the only ones in there would be the broodstock catchers from Nanaimo as they had a key to the gate and would drive in. I would always chat with them. Then one day one of the fellas told me this will be the last yr we take broodstock from the river. This was in the mid 90s. I asked him why? He told me because there was not enough steelhead to take out of the system anymore. That was a very sad moment for me to hear that. Probably the same thing with Vedder early stock now.

[Robert_G]

the Gold River has certainly had it's ups and downs over the years though the winter returns are lower than ever it's certainly did not have 3000 to 4000 fish 'consistently'.

Last estimates for the C/V from the snorkel counts 15 to 20 years ago was more like a total of 4,000 with a split of about 50/50 for wild and hatchery fish. It may have been higher in the way back when.

While the Gold winter fish have declined to next to nothing this is not true for the summer fish which are doing ok. Maybe the summer fish benefit from lake (Muchalat) and canyon (The Heber) habitat that is not available to Gold river winter runs?

It was discussed in some of the PSF youtube videos (previously posted a link) that species such as coho & some chinook stocks that have yearlings that spend a winter or more in their home streams have a bottle neck survival pattern. The fry to parr survival bottleneck has been noted for the Thompson for example. Perhaps with excess logging and extreme weather patterns there is a loss of stream over wintering habitat

As for your numbers are you talking escapement, or run size (the number of fish before any fisheries on that run..... and before they enter the mouth of the river)
I was talking run size...not escapement.

[RalphH]

in river estimates.

[Dave]

So, 18 fish in the Wally Hall derby, 2 in the Dart and Tackle derby, 1 in the Boxing day derby, 2 wild fish tubed for broodstock ... are we concerned yet?