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[bigblockfox]

i am putting my $ on all of the recent habitat enhancement and hatchery supplement to why the vedder is doing better.

the chehalis is the biggest spawning tribuarty of the harrison and we have seen how bad it has become with a hatchery on it. imagine the actual salmon populations in the rest of the watersheds in the harrison region. weaver creek,cogburn, bigsilver, birkenhead, green river. not catching salmon in the harrison is more of reflection of how well northern tribs are doing which i am guessing is very poor.

[wildmanyeah]

Well on thing that is different is the Harrison run has a large wild component. The Chilliwack is mostly a hatchery produced run derived from Harrison stock.

I have certainly read and heard elsewhere that the Harrison and other north side rivers have seen stock declines over the last few years across most species that have not been experienced on the Chilliwack to the same extent.

The prevailing wisdom is that wild smolts have a higher survival then hatchery smolts. This just isn't the case when comparing wild harrison smolts the chilliwack hatchery.  The chilliwack smolts survive at a higher rater.  Maybe capturing and marking the harrison wild smolts is traumatic or maying there out migrating counts of the wild smolts are off. 

I find it interesting considering how closely related they are in DNA.  DFO biologist are clueless as to why.

[stsfisher]

The prevailing wisdom is that wild smolts have a higher survival then hatchery smolts. This just isn't the case when comparing wild harrison smolts the chilliwack hatchery.  The chilliwack smolts survive at a higher rater.  Maybe capturing and marking the harrison wild smolts is traumatic or maying there out migrating counts of the wild smolts are off. 

I find it interesting considering how closely related they are in DNA.  DFO biologist are clueless as to why.

We all know the difference is the fish processing plant that pops up every year in the lower Harrison river. You can not run a processing plant year after year and expect stocks to sustain it self year after year. Did we learn nothing from the early 1900's when fish processing plants where the norm up and down the coast? what happened to them and why?

Yes the hatchery outlet and floods from forestry also play a role, but they should be talked about along with every other issue effecting the chehalis.
It won't be long and we will be saying the same for the chilliwack, only a matter of time these same processing plants will be allowed to carry on in its system. After all it will be the only lower fraser system left with sustainable fish number s for FSC purposes 

[RalphH]

historically the Harrison Fall Chinook run is cyclical with pronounced peaks and valleys. The Chilliwack hatchery may smooth that out and that river itself may have lower mortality factors for downstream migrants. The Harrison has very large populations of pike minnow for example.

[avid angler]

Ralph and wild man... wow. The Harrison has the best spawning and juvenile rearing habitat going. Are we really blaming pike minnow for the decline on harrison whites. The answer couldn’t be more simple. The chilliwack releases the same amount of smolts every year regardless how many adult spawners return. The Wild Harrison whites have to deal with the beach seine genocide every fall. You take out most of the adult spawners out of the harrison and what do you expect to happen?

Wildmanyeah you post on every thread but don’t actually spend any time on any of the tributaries you post about. There’s nothing special about the hatchery harrison white smolts in the chilliwack. There is just the same amount released every year and the returning adults don’t have to deal with the fn atrocities that happen every fall from bowmans all the way to the spawning beds on the harrison itself.

[wildmanyeah]

Ralph and wild man... wow. The Harrison has the best spawning and juvenile rearing habitat going. Are we really blaming pike minnow for the decline on harrison whites. The answer couldn’t be more simple. The chilliwack releases the same amount of smolts every year regardless how many adult spawners return. The Wild Harrison whites have to deal with the beach seine genocide every fall. You take out most of the adult spawners out of the harrison and what do you expect to happen?

Wildmanyeah you post on every thread but don’t actually spend any time on any of the tributaries you post about. There’s nothing special about the hatchery harrison white smolts in the chilliwack. There is just the same amount released every year and the returning adults don’t have to deal with the fn atrocities that happen every fall from bowmans all the way to the spawning beds on the harrison itself.

I’m talking about survival to age 2, it’s all well documented on the pacific salmon commissions  website. The fall 4-1 are what know as a shelve stock. There marine history is they spend most of their lives on the inside of ECVI as well as a small portion on wcvi on the shelf.
Since they spend most of there marine life in local fisheries there abundance’s can be estimated in marine waters though marine fisher intercepts.

The Chilliwack smolts have higher survivability.

I am not talking about returning salmon numbers and their variability. Nor was I making an assumption to why wild Harrison numbers are crappy.

You seem to have offered up a good reason that the indiscriminate rape and pillage of the stock for their eggs by Fist nations seems to be valid. Perhaps even the main cause that stock can’t handle the pressure from local FNs.

[RalphH]

Ralph and wild man... wow. The Harrison has the best spawning and juvenile rearing habitat going. Are we really blaming pike minnow for the decline on harrison whites.

this is putting words in my mouth. I am just offering my actual observations on fishing the Harrison. I'd also note in the spring when  most smolt migration takes place the Chilliwack is high, cold, fast  and turbid, the Harrison less so.

Like it's ok to blame everything on seals, sea lions or FNs - but not on other predators or user groups.

I'd also note that none of these observations that FNs are over exploiting white springs are backed up by any data, not even bad data.

Beyond your usual anti FN fishing rant do you have any other direct observations on the Harrison to offer?

[bigblockfox]

https://www.cloverdalereporter.com/news/recreational-chinook-openings-leave-first-nations-frustrated-on-the-lower-fraser/?fbclid=IwAR1JU-4FFgwol-rYiqMZfJEzJu9KbBdxj624nXQ4GWS3dBA0rqusU4_TSvA

[wildmanyeah]

as predicted... They want priority of hatchery fisheries....Now you don't have to doubt it its their own words....


https://www.surreynowleader.com/news/recreational-chinook-openings-leave-first-nations-frustrated-on-the-lower-fraser/

Limited recreational openings for chinook on the Chehalis and Chilliwack rivers being questioned

Recreational chinook openings leave First Nations frustrated on the Lower Fraser

"Lack of respect for First Nations fisheries priorities by federal authorities has left members of the Lower Fraser Fisheries Alliance frustrated.

That’s how recreational openings for chinook salmon on the Chehalis and Chilliwack rivers are being characterized by the LFFA, which serves 23 First Nations on the lower Fraser River."

[essyoo]

Asking out of complete ignorance and trying to understand these claims. How does FN contribute to the hatcheries, watersheds, or future wellbeing of the stocks? Does the hatchery program's funding come purely from license sales or is the bulk of the money from government subsidies?

I can understand a claim to wild stocks for subsistence needs, but claiming hatchery without any apparent contribution seems...bad? Again, I am asking from a place of ignorance and seeking to get more facts. Happy to be informed on this.

[RalphH]

Pacific Salmon hatchery production is paid for out of the Federal budget "General Revenue" account. No license or other fees are tied to it (unlike the Provincial License). Hatchery production is for the benefit of all users including FNs. All SCOC and other court rulings apply so technically they get priority access.

[stsfisher]

I am not sure Mr. McNeil and Mr. Malloway are shocked and frustrated? They are more than welcome to fish for Chinook just like every other person that resides in Canada with a rod and reel on these 2 systems.

“We do this every year,” said LFFA chair Ken Malloway. “After much consultation, we wait to hear about when we’ll be able to go and get our fish for ceremonies but all of a sudden we see sport fishers going out first instead.”

Please join us Mr. Malloway, stand with us shoulder to shoulder with a rod and reel on these 2 systems and see how sports anglers fare during the summer Chinook season. 

[stsfisher]

“Tensions are rising,” Malloway added. “If we don’t find a way to work better together, some nations may begin to authorize their own fisheries.”

 Another bully, using the right words for media. Media eats this up because it is main stream right now, no need to follow up or look into how people have been trying very hard the last 10+ years to work together. Comments like this tear that work apart, and do no good for the fish.

[RalphH]

Actually I don't believe FNs are even required to obtain a license to angle for pacific salmon. This is something that changed within the last couple of years though any previous requirement for them to have a license may have not been enforced for some years before.

[poper]

Hey Ralph, do you support FN using nets on these 2 systems we are talking about.