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[Every Day]

One thing missing in all of these discussions. Actual hatchery steelhead witnessed on the spawning grounds with wild fish.

As said previously, the issue isn't even necessarily hatchery spawning with wild, it's hatchery fish spawning period. Even two hatchery spawning together would create a "wild" offspring. If any of those offspring come back, hatchery genetics are then spread to the wild population. There's a good amount of evidence that hatchery genes, even after just 1 rearing cycle in the hatchery, are passed from parents to offspring.

As for how many hatchery steelhead are actually spawning, it would be incredibly hard to know. You can't really swim during the peak spawn due to visibility and height. You can't radio tag every hatchery fish in the river just to have 80% of those killed and hopefully returned (the cost is huge and won't happen).  I can tell you I got 2 hatchery kelts last spring in April in the lower and I only fished under 10 hours total, so they are obviously spawning somewhere.

At the end of the day, creel observations are being used, and they will assume that up to a certain % of hatchery fish spawn because of that 58% release rate. It's the best they can feasibly do. As much as we'd like to know, conditions in the Vedder in May don't allow for accurate spawning observations.

[Dave]

Dan, we're both dreaming in technicolor  but I like yours better. I am a big fan of eyed egg plants but because they're so labor intensive I can't see it happening.
With volunteers it could work, just needs a champion.

Lots of good discussion ..

[bkk]

I personally believe that if the hatchery program was cut that funding would simply disappear instead of being reallocated to anything else.

What funding? The Province pays nothing for that program. All of the steelhead fish culture is paid out of the Chilliwack Hatchery budget which is also heavily stressed. That is all federal money. If that program go's away then the money will be spent on other things. The Province could give a rats my friend about steelhead and they have more than made that evident the last 30+ years. Thompson, Chilcoltin and other upper Fraser steelhead are all going bye bye. Be thank full you have decent steelhead fishery in an area that has 2.5 million people living in it. Every other lwr. mainland population has just remnant populations left.

[Every Day]

Dan, we're both dreaming in technicolor  but I like yours better. I am a big fan of eyed egg plants but because they're so labor intensive I can't see it happening.
With volunteers it could work, just needs a champion.

Lots of good discussion ..

Do you think eyed egg plants would be more labor intensive/ costly than raising smolts to release size? I feel like it's just a matter of reallocation of funding/ work hours. The awesome thing with steelhead is that they spawn far enough apart that you could simply do a few plants a day over a multi week (or even multi month) time period.

[avid angler]

What funding? The Province pays nothing for that program. All of the steelhead fish culture is paid out of the Chilliwack Hatchery budget which is also heavily stressed. That is all federal money. If that program go's away then the money will be spent on other things. The Province could give a rats my friend about steelhead and they have more than made that evident the last 30+ years. Thompson, Chilcoltin and other upper Fraser steelhead are all going bye bye. Be thank full you have decent steelhead fishery in an area that has 2.5 million people living in it. Every other lwr. mainland population has just remnant populations left.

We’re saying the same thing.... they cut the steelhead program. That money isn’t going to be spent on steelhead.

[stsfisher]

As said previously, the issue isn't even necessarily hatchery spawning with wild, it's hatchery fish spawning period. Even two hatchery spawning together would create a "wild" offspring. If any of those offspring come back, hatchery genetics are then spread to the wild population. There's a good amount of evidence that hatchery genes, even after just 1 rearing cycle in the hatchery, are passed from parents to offspring.

 I can tell you I got 2 hatchery kelts last spring in April in the lower and I only fished under 10 hours total, so they are obviously spawning somewhere.

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This is why I asked if and how many hatchery steelhead are allowed to spawn in the hatchery channel. I personally have seen hatchery fish in the channel that would lead you to believe e they will be utilizing it as a means to reproduce.

I too have caught kelted hatchery fish, but  have caught way more kelted wild fish leading me to "assume" the % of hatchery spawn is not anywhere near what a creel study would suggest.

In the end whatever decision is made will not change my fishing habits or views. I do hate to think these knee jerseys desicions made using sloppy science and math could lead to possible hatcherybcuts if we are not careful of what we wish for.

[Dave]

Do you think eyed egg plants would be more labor intensive/ costly than raising smolts to release size? I feel like it's just a matter of reallocation of funding/ work hours. The awesome thing with steelhead is that they spawn far enough apart that you could simply do a few plants a day over a multi week (or even multi month) time period.

Done right this could do wonders for the depressed upper river population and your'e right, would not cost more if the work was done with reallocations, with assistance from volunteers.

Like I said, it needs a champion to get things going.  These are steelhead, not likely the Federal hatchery is going to supply the labor.

[avid angler]

As said previously, the issue isn't even necessarily hatchery spawning with wild, it's hatchery fish spawning period. Even two hatchery spawning together would create a "wild" offspring. If any of those offspring come back, hatchery genetics are then spread to the wild population. There's a good amount of evidence that hatchery genes, even after just 1 rearing cycle in the hatchery, are passed from parents to offspring.

 I can tell you I got 2 hatchery kelts last spring in April in the lower and I only fished under 10 hours total, so they are obviously spawning somewhere.

[/quote

This is why I asked if and how many hatchery steelhead are allowed to spawn in the hatchery channel. I personally have seen hatchery fish in the channel that would lead you to believe e they will be utilizing it as a means to reproduce.

I too have caught kelted hatchery fish, but  have caught way more kelted wild fish leading me to "assume" the % of hatchery spawn is not anywhere near what a creel study would suggest.

In the end whatever decision is made will not change my fishing habits or views. I do hate to think these knee jerseys desicions made using sloppy science and math could lead to possible hatcherybcuts if we are not careful of what we wish for.

stsfisher that’s exactly right. A steelhead that stages in bounds on the vedder will be caught multiple times. Sooner or later chances are 1 of who knows how many people that encounter that hatchery fish will decide to retain it.

[redside1]

so legally you are not aloud to target coho on the upper pitt anymore. thats a bummer. if my memory serves me right it was just chinook that was closed.

i wonder when people are just going to play it and fish anyway. sad state of affairs.

you are not allowed to target salmon anywhere in Region 2 unless the regulations say it's open. Even this past Fall Morice creek/slough, the Harrison tributary, was closed for all salmon fishing. It was not listed has an open body of water.

[wildmanyeah]

Quote from: bigblockfox on January 06, 2021, 02:53:21 PM
so legally you are not aloud to target coho on the upper pitt anymore. thats a bummer. if my memory serves me right it was just chinook that was closed.

i wonder when people are just going to play it and fish anyway. sad state of affairs.

you are not allowed to target salmon anywhere in Region 2 unless the regulations say it's open. Even this past Fall Morice creek/slough, the Harrison tributary, was closed for all salmon fishing. It was not listed has an open body of water.

DFO officers stated in a meeting with reps that they won't be enforcing it on the pitt.

[Dave]

A friend who does not post here has suggested a solution to removing hatchery steelhead from the system, and keeping the daily retention at one .... increase the annual limit to 20 from 10.  What do you think?

[Rodney]

I've never understood why we even have an annual quota for hatchery steelhead actually. Perhaps this was implemented when wild steelhead could still be retained? I don't know, I'm not that old like some of you. Why wouldn't it be just like hatchery coho, where annual quota doesn't exist. They are hatchery fish after all, need to be removed, so I don't see the point of putting a cap on them. It makes sense for chinook salmon, since current fisheries are targeting a lot of wild/unclipped fish. Plus, the paper recording method is silly, compliance can't be very high.

[bigblockfox]

for sure. the hole system needs a 21st century revamp. especially the fresh water synopsis.

as for the paper method, print, print, print. especially in the salt.

[bigblockfox]

Quote from: bigblockfox on January 06, 2021, 02:53:21 PM
so legally you are not aloud to target coho on the upper pitt anymore. thats a bummer. if my memory serves me right it was just chinook that was closed.

i wonder when people are just going to play it and fish anyway. sad state of affairs.

DFO officers stated in a meeting with reps that they won't be enforcing it on the pitt.

is this because it is so remote? whats the reasoning? kinda weird dfo would make a rule change and than tell people they wont enforce it.

[RalphH]

I've never understood why we even have an annual quota for hatchery steelhead actually. Perhaps this was implemented when wild steelhead could still be retained? I don't know, I'm not that old like some of you.

I think that's mostly it. The first annual limit was 40 steelhead a year  with a 3 fish daily bag limit. Then it was reduced. Then wild steelhead were put on no retention and hatchery fish set at 10. Perhaps the idea was to make sure there was some to go around for all anglers and not just the sharp hawks that fished virtually everyday of the season.

I am sure the whole sequence is listed in Bob Hooton's book Day's of River Past.