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[reach]

How much does an overhand or figure eight knot weaken a leader?

To put it another way, when you check your fly and find a knot in the leader, do you:

a) leave it there,
b) untie it,
c) cut it and tie a surgeon's knot or blood knot,
d) replace the leader?

Some day I might not have any tailing loops and this problem will go away, but that day is not yet here.   

[TtotheE]

I find I got lotsa wind knots when I was casting with the tip moving in a circular motion of some sorts.  Still happens,  usually when I'm not watching my line fly    I've become accustomed to noticing the telltale "whooshing" sound my leader makes whenever I've created a knot (not tightened from casting too much yet) so I just undo it then.

I've read that a knot in the leader can decrease the strength of the line in half.  Not sure about it tho.  Think about when you're busting off a big chum so you can have more time to fish for coho....the leader usually snaps at the knot,  or at a knick/scratch in the leader.

If you leave the knot there,  you've weakened your leader and are giving the fish more of a fighting chance. 

If you untie it and keep using your leader,  the kink that's been created will form a weak spot in your leader.

Both options c and d are good.  D being the best,  leader strength wise.  Remember that all knots weaken the line.  Ultimately there will be a stress point in the knot which will tend to break before an unknotted portion of line.
I've been using 8 lb leader,  so a surgeon't knot or blood knot doesn't weaken the line so much that I still can't fight a fish,  with care.  Replacing the leader depends also on where the knot is.  If its not going to make a huge difference to just cut off the knot and shorten the leader to where the knot was,  then I do just that.  If the knot is right in the middle of that portion of my leader,  then I just replace that portion.

Hmm, wonder how many times I repeated myself

T
<modified after doing some searching>
Here's something I found on the net:

Knots represent another area of saltwater fly fishing where little things mean a lot. A simple overhand knot in a leader can reduce its breaking strength by up to 50 percent. No one intentionally ties overhand knots in their leaders, but they get there just the same. We all know them as wind knots, and they usually appear after a cast goes awry.
Whenever you have a cast go bad, immediately strip in the line and check the leader for wind knots. If one is found, it can usually be worked out rather easily because it has not had a chance to tighten up due to additional casting or fighting a fish.
If a knot is found that has already been pulled tight, resist the natural tendency of taking a fly and trying to work the knot apart with the hook point. A sharp point can nick or cut the leader material that can go undetected until the leader pops under the weight of a fish. It's better to rebuild the leader or tie on a new one.

The rest of the article here...
http://www.flyfishinsalt.com/article.jsp?ID=32068&typeID=334&categoryID=256
And just one more which states the same...
http://www.flyanglersonline.com/begin/knots/crknot.html

[reach]

Excellent info.  Thanks.  I guess I'm on the right track.  When I see the line fall in a big tangle, I do strip it in and undo any knots right away.  And if a knot is in a section of leader that is much stronger than the tippet I'm using, I just leave it.  If it's close to the fly, I retie the fly.  If it's close to an existing knot between leader sections, I retie that knot.  I'll keep that magic 50% number in mind when deciding what to do.

I can't seem to get away from using some kind of oval tip motion.  If I keep the tip in one plane, I always seem to hit the rod on the back cast.     But it does seem more efficient when I keep everything vertical.  And the fly turns over strangely (kind of sideways?) on long casts with the tip motion I always seem to end up with.

Hopefully if tomorrow is as nice as today I'll get out in the yard again and make a few more knots trying to figure things out.   

Thanks,

reach

[TtotheE]

I try to cast just slightly off axis(rod slightly out to the side),  not perfectly vertical,  since your line will inevitably droop(at least mine does).  If its just off axis you won't be smacking your rod as much.

[Fish Assassin]

Like TtotheE said, cast slightly to the side. I have the same problem casting vertical

[JackFunk]

Here is some knot Test info I have saved.....
They tested a wind knot at 87% strength

"
Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and
tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an
example: The highly touted monofilament loop knot is very strong when dry
but falls far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament
becomes wet.

   Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and
gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that
are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The
following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three
different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used
because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material
we have tested.

   Loop Knots:
   Bimini--------------100%
   Duncan------------96%
   Monofilament loop--87%
   Perfection---------85%
   2X surgeons-------68%
   4X surgeons-------68%
   6X surgeons-------81%
   7X surgeons-------73%.
   
FYI:the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent.
        the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent.
        the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent.

    the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent.

Mono to mono connecting knots. These knots were tied with dry 3x Dai Rikki
monofilament then soaked 45 minutes before testing. The numbers fall
quickly as line sizes become disparate.

  Blood Knot 6 turns each side---68%
  Surgeon's knot 2x-------------53%
  Surgeon's knot 3x-------------59%
  Back to back uni knots--------61%
"

[river]

interesting article:
as a side note, while performing tests for my engineering thesis i brought some monofilament into the lab to test windknots. There was a substantial difference whether the knot was wet or dry. in the test above, the mono was soaked... not much good that would do seeing as nylon doesn't readily absorb water. however, i found dry windknots broke at 75% that of wet windknots (tested with lubrication) ie. the knot is pulled tight underwater or real fishing conditions. the reason is heat formed by friction hardens the nylon causing it to crack and fail. lubricated knots disperse heat more readily and fail at a higher value. knicked line (or mono that was rolled between a shoe and the concrete floor) failed at 15% that of the lubricated knot! that one really surprised me! another thing to note is that the dry windknot failed at a load higher than the pound test i was using.
the moral of the story,
always spit on those knots.

[Terry Bodman]

Interesting research but from my experience any time I have not attended to a wind knot (by removing or retying using surgeon's knot) I have been a very sorry fly angler. It seems that the fish know there is a knot and hit the line extra hard in the interest of seeing how many swear words the angler knows.

My advice: attend immediately to wind knots.