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[chris gadsden]

I remember when I was living in Fort St. John the Bait Ban was brought in for the Peace river. That basically killed the Burbot and Whitefish fishery. I think a bait ban should stay as it is now. River by river not a blanket ban like is being proposed.

I like whitefish fishing now in the Stave and a maggot on a fly(royal coachman) seems the best way to catch them, so if a ban is in that fishery will end, it would suck as there is an abundent amount of whitefish.  I also like carp fishing so that fishery will end as well.

You have brought up a couple of excellent points. I think those making this proposal of a bait ban have not thought it out how some fish like carp can not be caught as far as I know without bait. Corn that I believe is a popular bait to fish for them will be included in this ban. Of course there is many different methods of catching some species of salmon and the most popular mehod will become one that most of you know I have no use for.

Gone will be the days when a lot of us started our first fishing experiences as youngsters, with a garden worm, a bobber tied on some line attached to pole cut from a willow tree. They call it progress, getting on with the times but to me these fisheries bureaucrats have got it all wrong but this should not surprise us one bit by their performance the last few years.

[Fish Assassin]

Wonder what they are going to do when there is a great proliferation of carps and other coarse fish when the province wide bait ban is implemented.

[allwaysfishin]

so here is some ammo against this nonsense bait ban, which we can assume is meant mainly to protect steelhead but not just steelhead.

1997 study co authored by Fisheries Section Head Ian mcGregor and the now deceased Fisheries Biologist Ric Olmstead, that documented mortality over 5000 steelhead caught and released in regions 1,2 and 3.
DIRECT MORTALITY FROM BAIT WAS 3.16%
DIRECT MOTALITY FROM ARTIFICIAL INCLUDING FLYS WAS 4.14%
THIS INFO IS READILY AVAILLABLE IN WLAP FILES.

Documented evidence of several years of brood stock capture on the Nicola USING BAIT with virtually ZERO mortality. SEE DFO FILES

2 years of radio tagging steelhead on the chilliwack/vedder using mainly bait with VIRTUALLY ZERO mortality. see LGL (Troy Nelson) studies. WLAP commisioned this study and groups such as the BCFDF donated money for the study.

they state in this proposal that this new reg will HARMONIZE and establish UNIFORMITY
in that common sense dictates that all other arbitrary restrictions ie:fly only must be discontinued.

the ministry has on file documented from surveys on the Dean River from 1999, which other than a small area is "FLY ONLY". The run size estimate was at 3500 steelhead. Stream guardians throughout the season reported capture of 4700 fish. Obviously these fish had been captured numerous times resulting in undue stress and increased mortality. Based on the WLAP logic that they use to justify the bait ban, then FLY ONLY on the Dean should be banned.
*the above information is taken directly from a recent letter to WLAP from the B.C. Federation of Drift Fishers from the groups president.


Now, more ammo

the following is taken from a letter from Eric Carlisle , I trust that in the effort to fight this nonsense, he won't mind me taking a few tid bits from this letter and sharing.
he records that between JAN 1st 1974 to March 15 1985, it was found that in a sample size of 1010 steelhead caught by himself in a variety of water conditions and on a variety of rivers, only 37 fish or 3.66% where bleeders. A bleeder is defined as a steelhead hooked in the gills, brachial aorta under the tongue or where the gills come together at the roof of the the mouth. While many people think that bleeders are doomed, Bob Hooton's work on the Keogh showed that 30 to 50% of the bleeders survived, so Eric's actual steelhead mortality rate was somewhere near 2%.
     In his original study he found that he landed 843 steelhead on organic baits, and of these 812 did not bleed, and 31 bled for a bleeder rate of 3.67%. The nonorganic totals ( steelhead caught on gooeybobs, jensen eggs, spoons, spinners , plastic worms, lilcorkies, spin n glo, wool ect) were 167 landed, 161 non bleeders and 6 bleeders for a bleeder rate of 3.59%.

point of this..... the bleeder pecentages are so close that regardless of gear of choice, there will always be a mortality concern on catch and release fishing.

this proposed bait ban will cause nothing more than infighting among the different gear type users, preventing us to all band together and defend each other's right to fish.
WLAP is NOT representing the interests of the fish or the fisherman they are bending to the voice of special interest groups and environment anti fishing / hunting rhetoric.


THE PEOPLE WHO HAMMER THESE TYPES OF "PROPOSALS" TO THE GOVERNMENT TABLES HAVE TONNES , MILLIONS OF DOLLARS BEHIND THEM...... AND CHANCES ARE DON'T EVEN LIVE HEAR, LET ALONE FISH HERE.
WHAT HAVE WE GOT TO DEFEND AGAINST THAT???

THIS IS A FORMAL CALL TO JOIN THE FRASER VALLEY SALMON SOCIETY, A $10.00 MEMBERSHIP AND ALSO, SUPPORT THE SDA, SPORTFISHING DEFENSE ALLIANCE.

WETHER YOU ARE A FLY, BAIT OR GEAR FISHERMAN, ALL OUR INTEREST AND RIGHTS TO FISH ARE THE SAME.
THIS BAIT BAN WILL NOT MAKE A MEASURABLE DIFFERENCE IN OUR FAILING SYSTEM.
WE NEED STRICTER CONTROLS ON NATIVE AND COMMERCIAL HARVEST
MORE AND STRICTER ENFORCEMENT IN GENERAL
CHANGES TOI INDUSTRY PRACTICES BE THEY LOGGING, MINING OR ANY TYPE OF DEVELOPEMENT.
WE NEED A BAIT BAN LIKE THIS LIKE WE NEED ANOTHER FISH FARM OR BETTER YET A HOLE INTHE HEAD

[chris gadsden]

Thanks for the last post allwaysfishin. I had the same info and should have posted it sooner as it nails down a number of very good reasons why the proposed bait ban is very poorly thought out.

I know a few anglers think the proposal is ok but I believe they are in the minority. There is so many many more very important issues to spend time and money on to really do something to protect our fish and the habitat they occupy.

[blueback]

Right on Tom!!

[Headstone]

Well I applaud MWALP for taking this bold step (blanket ban or not) 30 plus years of studies will show that bait consistently outfishes artificial and has a higher mortality rating. If there are things we can change in the name of conservation,  that are within our grasp, without having certain rivers shutdown completely to angling would you embrace it?  I certainly would,  now how about you?



We can rant and rave all we want about flossing and bait bans but the two have very one distinct feature... Catch rates  We all know fishing is a blood sport and we do have an impact everytime we catch fish.  So are we all going to carry on playing the catch rates game? 

the ministry has on file documented from surveys on the Dean River from 1999, which other than a small area is "FLY ONLY". The run size estimate was at 3500 steelhead. Stream guardians throughout the season reported capture of 4700 fish. Obviously these fish had been captured numerous times resulting in undue stress and increased mortality. Based on the WLAP logic that they use to justify the bait ban, then FLY ONLY on the Dean should be banned.

ok I'm down with that... lets lift the fly only sections at certain times of the year no less (something you failed to admitt in your post) on the Dean River, so if the Dean River gaurdians were allowed to fish roe (which is banned) NOT artificial offerings fished with a gear rod (which you also failed to also admitt) how many steelhead do you think would have been hooked?

Tell me who are the Dean River guardians? what groups are they comprised of? is there any gear fisherman or are they all flyfisherman?


First Nations poaching is a problem, BUT it is a FEDERAL problem which has nothing to do with PROVINCIAL law makers, to deflect attention away from a bait ban and put FN poaching in the light is simply ridiculous.  The only thing the Provincial politicians can do is try and persuade the Feds to buck up and admit that there is indeed a problem... but that is all they can do.

'Alwaysfishin' have these studies been reported in any scientific journal for peer review?

As for the whole "its election year" I made my mind up along time ago who I'm voting for... Start looking up what the liberals have done in the name of "cutting the red tape" in regards to development and habitat destruction, or aggregate removal on the Fraser River... my mind was made up along time ago.

[rln]

I don't know how anybody can support the mismanagement that a blanket bait ban would do. WLAP needs to manage on a stream by stream basis and quit managing people and try to manage fish stocks. There are many other fisheries out there besides steelhead and the steelhead fishing crowd needs to realize this. Under WLAP guidance, steelhead and cutthroat stocks are in tough shape and because of the attitude WLAP has there is almost no hope for a recovery. The february swim ciunt on the seymour was reported to be 3 steelhead and what is WLAP doing about this? Nothing. I see such great leadership in their plan to recover steelhead stocks that I have now purchased a washington state freshwater license where there is still oppurtunity to fish in rivers with reasonble steelhead returns.

[Steelhawk]

Is there a reason why flyfishing purists/elitists are always the most vocal, most effective in lobyying, and most eloquent in writing or advocating their points?  Yet, they may not even be the majority, and the government are listening to the minority in proposing rule changes that favour a minority group among fishermen. Flyfishing is not that innocent in harming fish stocks.  How many chums and pinks are fouled hooked by them while flyfishers are targeting coho? Yet they alway assume that they are on higher ground and their craft is beyond reproach.

[chris gadsden]

Is there a reason why flyfishing purists/elitists are always the most vocal, most effective in lobyying, and most eloquent in writing or advocating their points?  

True fly fishers fly fish in a true fly fishing manner but there is others that I have seen use it as a method to just catch fish. I have seen some pretty bad fishing habits with a fly when coho, pink and other salmon stack up in periods of low water in the Fall, especially in places on the Vedder where the gravel excavations have taken place.You just see so many fish coming in side ways, tail first etc. in these areas, a sorry sight to say the least.

I am sure a number of others have noticed it as well. I am afraid if a blanket bait ban comes in you will unfortunatly see more of this type of fishing. I certainly am not picking on fly fishers as some gear fishers need to change the way they fish as well.

 We must do all we can to educate anglers that the goal of fishing is to make a fish actually chase and grab your offering, not the hook chasing and grabbing on to some part of the fish's body.

[Headstone]

Noneone has really said this but will this happen or is it just something that might happen but will probably not? I would also like to know that about the lead proposal I think they should only allow so much lead to be used losing 3 or 4 split shots isn't likely to happen I think that they want everyone flyfishing. 

want everybody flyfishing? hardly... simply put this is going to effect flyfisherman just as much as the gear fisherman.  Lead beads...gone, lead wire for flytying...gone.  There is some excellent lead substitutes on the market and when lead is replaced your going to see them on the tackle shop floors.   Sure thing,  they will be marginally more expensive then lead... but were not talking the price of gold here.

Is there a reason why flyfishing purists/elitists are always the most vocal, most effective in lobbying, and most eloquent in writing or advocating their points?  Yet, they may not even be the majority, and the government are listening to the minority in proposing rule changes that favour a minority group among fishermen. Flyfishing is not that innocent in harming fish stocks.  How many chums and pinks are fouled hooked by them while flyfishers are targeting coho? Yet they alway assume that they are on higher ground and their craft is beyond reproach.

The BCFFF and BCDF have agreed to put arguments on what is in our tackle box's long ago... this decision  is backed by sound science.  Its somewhat sad to see so many posts with "flyfishing purists/elitists" in there context.  The good old internet rumour mill is doing a fine job in creating mass hysteria over this supposed "blanket ban".

Flyfishing is not that innocent in harming fish stocks.  How many chums and pinks are fouled hooked by them while flyfishers are targeting coho?

your 100% right flyfishing is detrimental... and so is gear fishing.  In fact,  fishing in general is bad for fish.  Sure you point to flyfisherman snagging pinks and dogs, I can point to gear fisherman doing the same.  For instance take a look at the Stave fishery, there are 50 gear fisherman snagging fish to 3 flyfisherman.  Why bother pointing fingers?  we all know its done in both camps.  Again this proposed bait ban (on a stream by stream basis)  isn't proposed for chum and pinks.  It is proposed for catch and release streams where conservation is a concern.  It always seems that a proposed bait ban= flyfishing only... hardly.  This is nothing short of mass hysteria.  Go through the countless studies done on bait, and you will see bait is consistant with higher mortality rates.

It's not like a gear fisherman have nothing to fall back on.  Spoons, spinners, gigs, many plastic artificial offering and a spectrum of coloured wool.  I still fail to grasp why anglers would rather have bodies of water shut down instead of just fishing artificial offering, it seems so counter productive.  Perhaps if you can't lay the smack down on the fish you would rather not fish it at all?

True fly fishers fly fish in a true fly fishing manner but there is others that I have seen use it as a method to just catch fish. I have seen some pretty bad fishing habits with a fly when coho, pink and other salmon stack up in periods of low water in the Fall, especially in places on the Vedder where the gravel excavations have taken place.You just see so many fish coming in side ways, tail first etc. in these areas, a sorry sight to say the least.

Sad and 100% true Chris, what do we do about these people? I try and educate them.  The media makes flyfishing seem so diabolically hard... its not.  You can buy a cheep outfit and a handful of flies and your off and running.  We are going to see these people ( I won't use the term anglers) in both fly and gear.  Some simply don't know any better... others seem to gravitate towards the numbers game... IE fishing where fish stack up, flossing (snagging) of fish (both fly and gear).

Its a tough call sifting through fishing forums... it seems the majority of us are very ethical anglers and hold fishing so close to our hearts... for us fishing is a very serious distraction, if were not fishing were on the internet talking about fishing.  For many you high caliber gear fisherman, deep hooksets are not a problem, but what about "X" % of people out there who don't know how to fish properly and ethically? 

Kudos to people like 2:40 who haven't lost a piece of pencil lead.  I know many gear fisherman that fish pencil lead held by surgical tubing.  In fact I fished this way for years.  It always helped me if I were to get my lead wedged between boulders the lead would simply be pulled out or "popped out" and I would save my setup. Though rarely I would lose lead this way it did happen.   I can tell you that I often loosed lead when the line went tight as I was playing fish.  Lets not even talk about the amount of bouncing beddy's on the bottom of the Fraser... lets not even go there! 

[leadbelly]

sorry gotta go there.Been to many bars this winter often the same bars several times to collect bettys and gather as much line and junk left behind by the crowds.Its phenominal how seemingly endless expanses of gravel bars are just paved with line and old hooks ect.Laidlaw is the worst, several of us all afternoon the other weekend couldnt make a dent in the line ect tangled in the rocks.Yes Im ranting but Im also doing something about it.

[2:40]

Lost a piece of lead yesterday morning  I was quite attached to that guy. Even carved a little maple leaf in it for when they were beating up the Senators last season in the playoffs. 

Headstone is right on in saying dont paint flyfishers with the same brush just because a bunch flock to meat holes and floss/snag away with flyrods.  I wouldnt like it any more from my standpoint if people see the hoards of guys with drift rods flossing/snagging away and say gear fishermen are a bunch of snaggers.

I dont like the term 'elitists/purists' these days. This used to mean guys that would only fish dry flies, use centre pin reels and etc. Now it seems to include people who refuse to meatfish and would rather keep fishing correct and make the fish bite. In flossing debates, how often have I been called an elitist just because I state "FISHING IS ABOUT MAKING A FISH BITE!!!" Something is wrong here.

No worries Randog, not getting into anything here  , but my point is, are the ones that dont meat fish are the ones that the word 'fishing' has a much deeper meaning to it. They dont go out to get as much as they can, rather they enjoy the resource itself for many many reasons. For this, they get more scared when they see this resource being abused or dissappearing and work to protect it. People who view fish as only something to eat and dont really care how they get the fish on the beach dont seem to care as much. If they did, there would be a pretty strong angling voice out there. Why do I only see relatively few people attending Vedder River clean ups? It's not like everybody is working on those days as the river is always packed with guys. Not saying all of them are meat fishing, just stating an observation curious why more cant give up a morning's fishing, even if you can only ever get out on a weekend, to give something back.

Pretty sad isnt it leadbelly.

[allwaysfishin]

In answer to headstone's query about the source and documentation of my comments.
I work in the sport fishing industry and the "availlability " of info is higher I beleive than the average fisherman. Many reports and publications pass through my hands.
ALL the mentioned info is availlable through WLAP and DFO files. I trust that if you are truly interested in the validity of those studies you will seek the information out yourself.

It seems that on the various internet forums we have locally, that the members seem to keep turning this into a FLY GUY vs BAIT/GEAR guys.
Well, wake up and smell the coffee boys and girls it AIN"T ABOUT THAT and boots to the butt for anyone who insists on turning it into that.

The point is that if WLAP can "propose" a blanket bait ban or similar, then they will be gunning for other restrictions that eventually WILL be detrimental to FLY guys as well..

YOU ALL NEED TO REALIZE SOMETHING   proposals such as this don't come on the heels of GOOD SCIENCE and INVESTIGATION, they come on the heels of a bunch of maybes and inconclusive studies. The last time this bait ban issue was visited by the former entity that has become WLAP, the evidence was based on a study done in Oregon on STILLWATER catch and release mortality rates.
The findings from these lake studies were then applied to our rivers and streams ?? How is that proper use of science and investigation? 
So the big environmentalist anti hunting  anti fishing conglomerates are dictating through our government bodies that a bait ban is necessary and because thier bank accounts are bigger and thier collective voice is louder, we have to pay the price.
These same groups will push to graduallly erode our abilities to fish, and will use propaganda and pointless studies to change the way we conserve our resources.
They want to see ALL catch and release fishing banned.... what do you say to that???

[2:40]

I say I agree.

Bait bans are the beginnings of fishing bans. PETA will get involved even more than they already are.

On this topic, all who fish, regardless of method, must stand together. We can have a huge voice too. Let's worry about how we can/should catch a fish once we have ensured we can still do it period and that there are stll fish to actually fish for.

[Steelhawk]

allwaysfishing is dead on with the intent of the proposed blanket bait ban.  It is just the forerunner of things to come if it is easily passed and forced on the fishing public.

Personnally I don't trust the people who hold the power to regulate us. Who are they? How many are fishermen?  Do they rather stay on the golf course or the shopping mall than to go fishing.  I know they have a job in DFO, but what are their personal inclination in regards to fishing, a blood sport?  Are they more inclined to the reasoning of PETA or some other environmentalist or X rights groups? Yes, these organizations are loaded to lobby government. The money source may not even be from local donations. There are also the Parks dept and we know what their staff's inclination are. That may be why they try to close out chunks of the ocean in the name of protecting fish, but not backed by science.

Fishing regulations & opportunities seem to be progressively limiting.  Closed fisheries seem to stay closed.  When and where is this going to end?  Eventually, we may be so politically incorrect as fishermen that they can just declare an end to fishing, or meaningful fishing.  License fees are forever increasing, and fishing opportunities decreasing, that is another enigmatic trend.  PETA does not have to shut us down by reasoning.  Eventually there will be less and less people engaging in fishing, and less and less people giving a dime about fish welfare because they just cannot afford it.  Perhaps, by then, only the rich elitists remain. They can afford heli fishing or go fish the rest of the world.