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[Gooey]

Just wanted to throw a couple thoughts out there regarding driftnets (I have heard so many people bitching about them).

Are they realy that bad...here's my take:

#1) as a driftnet is free flowing in the river, it needs to be attended to its entire drift.  Wouldnt this increase accountability for that net?

#2) From a season on a gill net/troller, I can tell you dead fish will fall out of a net.  A drift net is picked more frequently than a set net.  Less drop outs means less wasted fish and quicker attainment of quota.  BTW I have heard of set nets left for a day unchecked.  As well my guess is that set nets are more susceptible to seals as opposed to drfit nets (more waste).

3#) Any opening be it sport, commercial or FN, is based on an allocation of fish eg 300,000 pieces.  Lets say driftnets are twice as effective as set nets...that means absolutely nothing to the overall allocation for that fishing group.  What using drift nets as opposed to set nets means is that the quota should be reached far quicker.  Wouldnt that make enforcement easier?  If a tribe can get their quota in 5 days of drifting as opposed to 10 days of set nets...management/enforcement would be much easier, wouldnt it?

The only down side I can see to drift nets is conflict of space with other users groups (whcih isnt a problem this year).

So whats all the bitching and moaning about...the quicker the FN gets their quota...the quicker they are out of the water and then the poachers really stand out like sore thumbs.

Just a few thoughts.

[Steelhawk]

Drift nets are long and potent in killing fish.  High sea drift nets are known to be graveyards for fish species.  If drifted in shallow & fast sections of the Fraser, it basically cleans up every fish along its path.  Oh, yes, when FN discover the effectiveness of driftnets, they don't hesitate to use them also for illegal poaching.  We all witness from Chris & Rod's report that FN openings are not closely monitored, and there are no official counting of the fish.  So, who told DFN that they have caught 300,000 sockeyes?  Where is that figure from?  Is that verfied and observed by 3rd party?  There could be double or triple as much fish hauled out by these openings with driftnets that no one knows for sure what they real take is.  A 48 hours opening by drift nets have way more killing power than 48 hours of set nets.  If DFO do not intend to monitor FN fisheries, at least they can limit their killing potentials. 

[Gooey]

Monitoring is the DFO responsiblity and frankly, it would be easier to do with shorter less frequent drift opening.  And as we witnessed with that Cheam pair that was drifting outside of an opening, it is easy to identify the poachers.

You know, the current fishing fleet is very mobile, heck apparently FN used to paddle in dug out canoes from the island and north coast to fish the fraser.

I think they need to restrict the area these fisheries occure in, confine them to a select area.  then give them nuthing but drift openings and watch them like hawks.

Anything outside of that area and opening, nets are confiscated, fines are levied.  The fraser is a HUGE river policing it is probably just as difficult as the US/Canada boarder...DFO needs to find ways of making their own jobs easier.

[Steelhawk]

You get a point Gooey.  The trouble is FN will not take a shorter season of openings.  To do that is to encourage more poachings with drift nets, the weapon of choice obviously.  These poachings obviously wiped out last year's run. 

[Gooey]

No, FN poaching didnt wipe the run out, DFO's mismanagement did (this includes too large an opening (sports/commercial/native) and lack of enforcement).

Look at people now, they know the numbers still arent great yet they risk sockeye to go after springs.  We cant blame the FN for being as greedy as we oursleves are and blame them for being at the root of last years problem...its the dFO's responsibiltiy to monitor and controll all aspects of the fishery. 

[pepsitrev]

  good point gooey it is dfo:s job to moniter and protect each species of salmon that enter the river. untill they do this there will be constant bitching from all sportsfishermen alike. only when they manage each fishery and keep control of it will we see a strong run of each species of salmon. the government could get off its lazy my friend and hire more fishery officers. instaed of spending money on plane trips and fancy political dinners give us more officers on the river.my 5 cents worth

[Sam Salmon]

As you can see for the inane comments here people are totally confused about high seas drift netting-which has largely disappeared-and drifting a net down the river.
In short most people are ignorant/have never seen a commercial opening and have no idea what makes the world go 'round.
(hint-it ain't chocolates/puppy dogs-ok)

[BwiBwi]

Fish has problem avoiding driftnets. Larger fish tend to be able to get away from set nets.

ie a 25mm eyed net mesh is intended to catch fish (gill plates) that will fit into the mesh.  a real big fish will be able to get out in set net and a small fish will be able to swim through.

However, in the case of drifnet, eventhough fish is not stuck in the net mesh. because of the non resistant nature of the driftnet, by the time fish realize they are 'stuck' and want to 'back out' they will get wrapped in the net.

In high seas it has been proven that even dolphins, seals, otters, seabird gets tangled and killed in driftnets.
That is why many countries has established maximum driftnet lenght allowable in ocean. To prevend 'accidental' kills of dolphins etc.

[rerigger]

a ten twenty or even hour drift with a short net in the river
is nowhere near they killing nets that were set in the north pacific
you will catch spring,pink and chum in a sockeye net though

[Gooey]

open ocean drift nets have no comparison to a drift net in the fraser. 

DFO sets limits for both the length and the depth of set nets and the drift net...and as far as I am aware THEY'RE THE EXACT SAME SIZE!!!!! 

yes they catch more fish as they drift down river, but I still think thats better, short attended drifts...less fish falling out.  what ever allows them to get their quota faster...I am all for it.

[blueback]

Sure Gooey; but what is the FN quota, and who is enforcing the 'quota'? Not DFO, that's for sure. They insist that 1 million plus fish died b/c of warm water, and shouldn't be considered part of that quota. They won't even tell what the total FN share will be. Even as a percentage, they (DFO) won't tell us until season's over; if then even. Clearly, DFO are not interested in managing the FN participation in the fishery; only non-1st Nations persons, IMHO.

[blaydRnr]

i can't believe what i'm reading. not even ignorance, just plain stupidity.

open ocean drift nets have no comparison to a drift net in the fraser. 

DFO sets limits for both the length and the depth of set nets and the drift net...and as far as I am aware THEY'RE THE EXACT SAME SIZE!!!!! 

yes they catch more fish as they drift down river, but I still think thats better, short attended drifts...less fish falling out.  what ever allows them to get their quota faster...I am all for it.

its like Bwi Bwi says, its the resistant nature of the drift nets that make them so potent.
whether they're a mile long (in the open seas), or 20 ft. (in the fraser).

a set net at least gives an untargetted species a chance to back away or avoid getting entangled in it's meshing, whereas a drifting net will usually confuse them into entangling themselves even more.

you're so smart gooey... explain to me how would they prevent a drifting net from drudging a shallow bank and accidently snagging a sturgeon? or even a diving bird looking for fish?.....they can't because i've seen it happen before.

maybe you should stick with the flossing debate...at least with that you only come across as a hypocrite.

[Steelhawk]

Sam, no where did I imply that high sea drift nets are used in the Fraser. To imply you know more than me about the subject is silly. I am 56, university educated, and read widely on fishing related subjects, so I hope I know something.

Those are huge long nets drifting in the ocean.  The Japanese fishermen are notorious for using them.  When lost adrift in the ocean unattended, these drift nets become graveyards for fish, dophin, sharks, turtles, and what have you.  They sink when overload with fish, only to flow up again when the dead fish rot and disintegrate from the net.  This process is repeated doing untold damage.  Yes, high-sea fishing treaties have eliminated these nets.

In regards to the Fraser, much smaller drift nets are used.  But in relation to the river width & depth, its killing power to fish in the river is relatively much more potent than in the high seas where fish are much more dispersed. They should not be used in the Chilliwack area due to the fast, narrow and shallow condition of the flow.  Escapement is minimal with these nets.  BBers can tell just from their fishing result whether illegal poachings by drift nets have occurred down stream of them - just a plain vacuum of fish after drift nets have done their job. 

[Gooey]

Blade, grow up. 

#1) I advocate a floss fishery when the stocks permit AND when there is retention for socs on the fraser.  I do not advocate C&R of socs as a by product of a spring floss fishery.  I want a soc fishery and am getting fed up with dfo...I have not flossed the fraser since the socs came in.  HOW IS THIS HYPOCRITICAL.  By the way if you want to discuss/attack my position on BBing, stick to the bottom bouncing thread or PM me, my friend wipe.

#2) by catches are a part of any fishery.  you notice that the albion test fisheries have netted sturgeon.  Both set nets and drift nets will catch sturgeon possibly even birds on rare occasions (I cant say for sure, but it sounds like you know).  So whats worse: a sturgeon or Thompsn coho/steelhead that has run into a set net thats checked once a day or that same fish that has just run into a drift net that is checked every drift.

I cant speak for native fishermen, but being involved in the commercial industry at one point myself, I can tell you we made a significant effort to release steelhead etc and the sooner we found them in the net.  Simple fact is that the set nets are monitored like a drift net so release from a set net would be far less successful.  This would particularly be true for sturgeon which are a tough fish and if found quick enuff will recover from a net.

Thats just my opinion based on some experience from within the industry....what knowledge do you have to sit on your high horse and attack me???

[Gooey]

Now that thats outta the way...the debate on the use of drift nets pretains to DFO sanctioned openings sam...not poaching.
Poaching is a totally diferrent subject and as I pointed out on another thread. 

No one just throws a drift net into the fraser and walks away.  they sit on that net, mend it, and drift with it.  If they were poaching then a drift net would be easy to identify (both net and culprit) and deal with...and thats DFO's problem under the subject of enforcement. I would guess that most of the poaching comes from set nets that are thrown out into the river and checked sporadically as the owners dont want to be caught near it.

So really we are back to square one...the only opposition here to drift nets are their ability to harvest fish quickly and more efficiently than a set net (this includes less drop out/waste).  And my take on that is the sooner a band gets their quota, the sooner they are out of the water. 

If the DFO lets the natives fish to much and/or sets their quotas too high, then that too is a totally different problem under the subject of quota allotment....

just a few thought to get the subject back on track.