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[Matuka Jack]

Matuka, your exact words are: Since the flosser causes the hook (or part of it) to be in the fishes mouth then the requirement is satisfied.

DFO says: To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth.

The simple fact that you use the word "cause" weakens your point.  Try replacing cause with induce in your sentance and it sounds silly, a fisherman can't induce a hook to do anything...but he can induce a fish to bite!

Further more you applied the word "cause"  to the hook not the fish. 

You didnt say the fisherman causes the fish to take the hook in its mouth.  You said he causes the hook (or part of it) to be in the fishes mouth. 

One thing that is clear is that DFO needs to do a better job communicating what their intentions are! 

Whether it is the hook or the fish as the focus of the event the inducer or the instigator of causality is the fisherman. When I fish, I centainly induce the hook to end up in the water and maybe to successfully induce a hook up with a nice fish.

To make the point clear, I will tell you a story. 
I was fishing beside a stanger and he is catching fish after fish after fish. 
I asked him, "What are you using?"
He replied, "A lure that I made."
He then handed me one to use.  I used it and I caught a fish with it.
So I told him, "I want to keep the lure.  How much do you want for it?"
He said --with a smile, "You can have it for free."
Since I learned something about making a particular lure.  I induce or cause the man to take some money, by putting the money in his pocket.  He then smiled and thanked me.  Hence, I induced or caused the man to smile.

Hence, if you induce or cause to have something in another entity's possession then you induce or cause the entity to take it.  As my intent for the actions that I take in the story above.

Saying that something sounds silly as an argument is definitely an invalid way to argue a point.  If you do not believe me then ask any highly educated person, to get a second opinion.

I suggest you take more courses in English (to expand your vocabulary) as well as Philosophy (to formulate better arguments).

[Gooey]

The problem here isn't with any persons vocabulary; DFO has a statement writen in black and white.

We are dancing around, playing word games..the only issue is in the interpretation of DFO's statement.

You and I have 2 different interpretations, doesnt mean that either of us is in need of further education! 

PS - your example: I(induce or cause) the man to take some money, by putting the money in his pocket.  If you put the money in his pocket, you didnt induce him or cause him to take it...you gave it to him, he had no choice..."you put it in his pocket"!

I do think you and many others are misinterpreting DFO's statement.  You don't see it that way so we will have to agree to disagree! 

[Matuka Jack]

Gooey,
I gave you the dictionary definition of the word "induce", yet you failed to comprehend its meaning.  There is a serious malfunction and I do not see any productive result of any debate with you.  There is no validity to the way in which you argue.

[Big Steel]

To all the "fisherman" out there, those who live in glass houses should not be casting stones!!!!! I could be wrong, but unless you have not fished the frasier for sockeye, ever, then you should not be making statements about the way a person fishes.  If you have fished for sockeye then do you really expect us to believe that you have never kept a fish that may have been flossed or snagged in the mouth???  I personally think that there are some very hypocritical people flapping there gums on this site.  Flossing, snagging, whatever.  How bout you start posting about something that people want to hear about, and stop flogging people that like to fish for, well, whatever the heck they can catch!!!
I do fish for sockeye, I do not keep foul hooked fish, and I could give a crap if someone thinks that because I bb that I am an unethical fisherman. I myself don't like bb, but I do love the taste of sockeye, so I fish for them.  It seems that to some people that if you even fish for sockeye then you are being accused of being a snagger. 
I will agree with one thing though, there are way to many bbers and flossers on the veddar.  I had Ia very hard time last year for coho because every run I went into was flooded with flossers 20min after first light, it was a total disgrace.  Made it damn near impossible to float fish as well. 

[Gooey]

Bobby B (BB for short  ), rodney moved this thread from reports to general discussion because of how the thread evolved.

One thing many of us agree on is that flossing is a problem off of the fraser on rivers like the vedder.  Personally I think flossing  is a problem any where outside of sockeye season.  Never have I used the words like ethical, moral, blah, blah, blah, in any of my posts. 

I also think the flossing problem on the vedder etc stems from the fraser fishery. 

I think that the average fisherman interprets DFO regs in a very liberal manner allowing him to consider flossing a justifiable means to hook anyhting that swims by.

I think this needs to change.

Gooey, over and out...for now 

[bigguy]

Gee, didn't know you had to have a masters in english for this, I thought the topic was lots of springs in the system!  Every year this discussion goes on and on, just getting more educated now! Find it humorous!

[blaydRnr]

 gooey. in the past, you mentioned it wasn't about the legality of bbing that disturbed you. so naturally, i assumed you were taking a stance, based on the grounds of ethics and morals...maybe you can kindly explain, where exactly are you coming from and what point are you trying to get across?

i will however, take your side on the issue of bbing the vedder. its way too small, narrow and shallow to justify using that method. besides, the majority of the people float fish therefore it is necessary to follow the norm, in able to keep the harmony and flow of the river.

[DragonSpeed]

Oh, and by the way that DFO statement says "SHOULD"   - not "MUST"

[Gooey]

I was going to let this one die but since you politely addressed a question to me blade, I'll kindly respond.

I like using anologies to help convey my point. the best analogy I can think of is the speeding one.  Technically we should all not exceed the posted speed limits.  I usually stick to the posted speed limits in the city and neighbourhood areas.  Commonly I travel with the flow of traffic on HW #1 at 120km and sometimes average 130-140 depending on the road.  Coinsidentally RCMP have a new mandate to focus enforcement of speed limits in high accident areas,  the #1 is not one of those areas so I regularly speed there.

For me, flossing is much like speeding, something that should be done in moderation and when the conditions warrant it. 

Unfortunately  sockeye on the fraser dont regularly bite any sort of presentation.  The only effective and consistant way to harvest sockey in the fraser is to floss them, thats simply because they dont bite.

Flossing is snagging no 2 ways about it.  The fish doesnt bite or strike the hook.  We, with 15-20 foor leaders direct the hook into the side of the fish's face...close enuff to the mouth to get away with snagging it.  I don't think anybody has a leg to stand on who says flossing isnt snagging.  Let me pose this question: if while flossing you hit a fish in the back, is it snagged  - of coarse.  Now if you direct the hook into the area of  its mouth, its magically not considered snagged now?  Another question, I see a fish sitting in a pool, I put a buzz bomb on with a big 4/0 hook, position it below the fishes head raize my rod tip and hook it around the mouth...is it snagged - of coarse, it didnt bite - thats exactly what flossing is! 

DFO (just like RCMP) prioritises things and selectively enforce the laws based on those priorities.  Them not writing tickets for flossing, allows us to get away with it...flossing socks is not a priority for them (but I have seen tickets written for flossed coho on the vedder so for other fisheries it is).

We need to respect the leeway DFO gives us for the fraser soc fishery.  When they ask us to us selective methods, I think we should respect that too.

My main beefs are:
- "sports" fishermen not respecting DFOs request for select fishing methods
- flossing being applied as a primary angling tactic on BC rivers like the fraser, Vedder, chehalis, cap, seymour etc
- flossing being used to fish the fraser for fish that do bite (mainly springs and pink). 

Flossing the fraser is something I could tolerate if the impact on none targetted fish stocks wasnt as high as it is.  Frankly with the lower water level, warmer river temps, and length of journey for most of the fraser fish, I think C&R is not viable.  I believe mortality of C&R fish in this scenario is too high and with all the stocks like closed sockeye, thompson coho, thompson steelhead etc that are in the river, I can't see flossing being a justifiable way to go out and fish for species that will bite.

With abundant stocks, I don't mind participating in a meat fishery like the fraser sockeye opeing. Just like the selective speed enforcement, I will take DFOs lax enforcement to my advantage because of the fact socs are abundant and cant be caught any other way.

But with the viral spread of flossing tho, I think for the sake of  "sports" angling and at-risk-stocks, flossing must stop or at least be highly regulated.

[rerigger]

i agree with fishfreak
besides if dfo really wanted no bb on the river they would
close it .

[gman]

What fishFreak said!

[Gooey]

FF you are right on one front, there is only so much talk will achieve.

Just so you are all aware, I have contacted the chair of the PSC and also been in touch with DFO regarding their "2005 public consultation".  As part of the public consultation, DFO is holding a meeting focussed on "fishing reform". Two issues I would like to have input on for that panel are FN accountability and sports fishing/flossing.  If they will have those topics tabled for that meeting, I will be there.

While none of you see much value in any of these threads, I have been forming ideas on why the issues exsist and what needs to be done to effect a positive change.  Just simple chasnges  like using direct, simple language that every person regardless of their age, race, or mother tongue is a huge step forward...look at all the different interpretations of  the DFO statement talk of earlier in this thread.

Its funny, many people here agree that our collective enjoyment of the vedder is being degraded by flossing and yet NO IS DOING ANYTHING!!!!!  FF, Rerigger, Gman: if we all had that attitude this world would be in real trouble ("one single person isn't going to save the world").  Thats the exact attitude it takes for EVERYBODY then to sit around on their my friend and do nothing. 

I would venture to say it was ONE person who started the idea of the Vedder River Clean group, maybe it never would have taken off without that 1 person's idea and insparation.  This web board initially formed because of ONE PERSON...thanks again rod!

I truly believe that sports fishing is in jeopordy with the onslaught of flossing...its something I will do my best to help stop.

What the rest of you do is up to you, just don't let me hear you complain about a flosser ruining a drift for you when you did nothing to stop it in the first place.

[Big Steel]

yes gooey, I will agree with you there.  But some of us are trying, A feww times on the vedder last year, when someone would listen, I quickly showed them the setup and that it would work, by hooking fish infront of them.  Whether or not these people are still doing the float fishing thing I don't know.  I do know that float fishing take alot of patience and practice. Alot of the people out there do not have any patience and want to catch there fish right away.  So they use the method that worked for them on the frasier, BBing.  We need to have people that have this view made aware that there is a much better alternative to bbing for the vedder and chehalis and rivers such as these. I have at times made it a point to try my hardest to totally out fish people that are bbing then showing them how I did it.  How many eyes has this opened I don't know,  but at least they were interested in trying float fishing.
It is at least a start.

[blaydRnr]

its great that you want to change things for the better. but lets face it. to be taken seriously, one has to be willing to show true conviction.  most people who believe in a cause will never waver from their train of thought and they would never do anything that could compromise or give the appearance of contradiction.

for example, people who claim to be vegetarians, but will eat eggs and sometimes fish...will go out of their way to defend themselves and insist they're true vegetarians. (they've created contradiction, so now people who ONLY EAT VEGETABLES call themselves VEGANS).

mother Teressa who won the Nobel Price for Humanity. took her million dollar prize and dumped every penny into her cause...(that's conviction).

People like Chris Gadsen and Rodney don't believe in bbing, so they don't (even when DFO says its OK).

i don't drink and drive so i refuse to take a sip of alcohol prior to driving. (that's a personal choice i make...insignificant, but i stand true to my conviction).

you say you want to make changes. great. but if you want people to look at you without doubt, you have to 'get off that fence' and make a firm decision on where you stand. it would also eliminate many useless debates.

[Gooey]

Blade, very little in this world is that black and white.  I enjoy access to sockeye on the fraser, years back when had a boat, we trolled them.  Believe me when I say I would much rather troll sockeye so I can get that ocean fresh fight and have plenty of room to enjoy the battle (not to mention you can retain 4 fish).  So you're telling me that if I didn't floss the fraser, I would be more credible? 

I can buy that to a certain degree, but if all I did is troll socs, I wouldnt have any exposure/knowledge of the fraser fishery and I would probably be in a weaker position to comment on it.

I think we all agree sockeye stocks were strong this year...7 mill fish for the summer run, not ot mention the other runs.  I have no problem flossing a few (7 this year) for the freezer.  In july, pretty much all thats in the fraser in terms of salmon is some early springs, I could handle those stocks seeing some pressure from flossers too(because there is very little impact on closed/protected stocks). 

The big problem tho is the way the sports industry is evolving, any stock in any river is getting flossed to a noticable degree and people are flossing when DFO asks them not too.  Its obvious DFO has a tolerance for flossing in certain applications (as do I), that does not reduce either party's credibility!  IMO, what need to be done is the formation of strict guidelines for the use of flossing to minimise its impact on closed/protected stocks and to eliminate its use on small rivers like the vedder etc.

I have suggested that access to the sockeye run needs to be separated from our sport liscence with a  separate distinct permit or tag; this would distance it from the privileges of a standard fresh water liscence. 

I think that could be a large step forward in a grey world.