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[blaydRnr]

FA and Like to Fish are key examples of the problem (no offence guys)...no one seems to care that DFO doesnt want us flossing the fraser out side of sockeye season.

As well, maybe we need to define snagging better.  IMO, snagging is anytime a fish is hook when the hook up wasnt caused by a STRIKE.   As well, the hook should be in the mouth (and to me that means INSIDE the mouth point going inside to outside).   So FA if you floss a fish on a 2 foot leader, its hooked in the scissors outside to in....its snagged in my books.

Flossing does not induce a strike.   Otherwise, leaders wouldnt need to be 12-15-even 20 feet long now a days.

Blade, your excert from the book begins: "bottom bouncing as a type of jigging".  The author was not referring to the type of bottom bouncing done from shores of the fraser - we certainly don't "jig" when we bottom bounce.  I also wonder what the regs looked like back then...do you think snagging was outlawed then...maybe not even defined!

This post, just like the rest is mostly off target becaue the simple point is:   DFO doesnt want us flossing the fraser out side of sockeye season!  No one can argue with that....I guess thats we everyone chooses to avoid that point! 

well you're also part of the problem.  you're so set in your ways and so narrow minded that you no longer look at things from other perspective.  you've taken a legitimate technique and convoluted it to something negative for the sake of trying to justify your means.

yes bb with a 12 ft  leader is flossing.   but why would you compare that with bb using 18 inches of leader?

also, you don't have to bb to floss. you can float fish with 5 ft of leader in 3 ft of water and quess what?

we understand where you and eddie99 are coming from and you both have valid points, but sometimes you also have to give way to reason and be able to distinguish between what's allowable and what's not.

[Matuka Jack]

ALL OF YOU have it wrong...but, frankly eddie is the closest.

As with the opening of the spring fishery, as with the opening of the pink fishery, as with the arrival of thompsons coho:

DFO DOES NOT WANT US FLOSSING THE FRASER IN THESE TIMES!   

Do you notice the sockeye fishery notices do not call for selective methods?  IMHO DFO allows us to floss sockeye because of their numbers and unwillingness to bite a presentation in the fraser.  DFO repeatedly indicates they doent want us flossing outside of sockeye openings...why do people disregard that?  THAT IS THE REAL QUESTION!

Lots of people on this board have kids.  What happens if you request that your kid not do something and then they turn around and do it.  Can't speak for all you other parents but I personally would: 1) remove access to that thing 2) possibly punish the child.

Now we are not children anymore but we collectively are thumbing our noses at the body responsilbe for CONTROLLING our fishery! 

What if they ban bottom bouncing...there goes the sockeye fishery, what if they just close the river down all together?   

If I were DFO both of those outcomes would be a real possibility. 

Think about that the next time you floss when DFO has asked you not to.

Gooey, I believe you have the arguments all wrong.  His claim is that BB is completely wrong morally or whatever.  Your arguments have something to do with endangered stock going through the river.  I do respect the DFO request not to BB when selective fishing method has been requested.  In fact, I never even wet a line on the river when protected stocks are comming through.  As far as fishing with other methods, I prefer it when fish comes and take the offering.  Catching fish is easier when the fish goes after what is being presented.  I am a food fisherman, I do not fish to cause harm to the fish for the purpose of having fun and/or amusement.  I seek as well as hope to catch only the fish that I can or want to take for food.

[Gooey]

Rod, yes, that pink under the chin is snagged. 

Dennis - if are aim was to induce a bite, why use 15+ foot leaders.  I fished the last 2 days of the opening with a BARE hook...caught more fish than anyone around me...dont think for a second a flossed fish bites. 

Ever notice all flossed fish are hooked on the far side of the face...thats cause you cant floss a fish and have the hook on the near side of the fish.

Blade...narrow minded...hell no...I see how DFO defines a snagged fish and tells us to INDUCE a bite to avoid snagging, I know the mechanics of flossing, and I know that dfo doesnt want us to floss outside of sockeye season.  PS - I take every advantage of the sockey flossery on the fraser, but I dont TAKE ADVANTAGE of the system outside of that.

reread how DFO suggests you avoid snagging a fish and you will realize flossing falls outside of that.  Show me how I am wrong in that staement and I will be forced to change my point of view. 

Here's it is again: To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth.

And in the mouth doesnt mean around it or outside-in...it means inside the mouth.  Sure a steelie that takes a pink worm and gets the hook outside in or under the chin is in my book fair game...but thats the EXCEPTION...flossed fish being legal seem to be turning into the rule now...that needs to change.

[Rodney]

Rod, yes, that pink under the chin is snagged. 

Sure a steelie that takes a pink worm and gets the hook outside in or under the chin is in my book fair game...but thats the EXCEPTION...flossed fish being legal seem to be turning into the rule now...that needs to change.

lol... I'm going pink fishing... oops, I meant, snagging, now.

[blaydRnr]

i don't fly fish, but there are those who say people who fly with lead leader are flossing. i wouldn't know.

but the thing is, where do you draw the line before you go from being a conservationist, to becoming eccentric?

if it's about zero tolerence, then why allow pinched barbs when barbless hooks are readily available.

too many issues. the guidelines are there for a reason...this carrousel ride is becoming too tiresome.

change the law then maybe it will eliminate the grey areas... that's the bottom line.

[Stratocaster]

Boy, this just never stops.  Are we going to debate about this year round now?

Unless you can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that a fish was flossed, you cannot accuse a person of being a snagger.  The only way to do that is to have an underwater camera to provide the evidence.  Hooked in the mouth from the outside in? not good enough,  I've hooked coho's on blades where I've actually seen them bite and somehow the hook was oddly enough from the outside in.  Using long leaders? you can argue that a longer leader would give the fish more of a chance to bite since it would neutralize the action of the boucing betty and make it easier for the fish to strike.  As for the term "anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth"  well you do that every time we put a corky or piece of yarn on the hook.

What am I trying to get at here? Well all this talk about "flossing is snagging" is moot unless you can prove what actually goes on down there.  As long as that person is using gear thats legal, you cannot go around accusing them of snagging if they happened to hook a fish in or around the mouth area.  Think of what kind of prescedence it would set?  People would start accusing others of flossing or snagging if in their own minds they felt that there was no way a fish would bite.  I see it happening already where someone had posted about their great day catching red springs on the vedder with a fly rod and some readers thought that the fish were snagged.  Boy I guess they are good enough fisherman to be able to be both judge and jury while sitting on their butts behind a computer screen.

Good on Chris and Rod for teaching readers about other fisheries they can participate in during sockeye season.  We all know that they don't fish sockeye in the Fraser by choice but they are willing to give out hints on what to do.  Their reports are not all about bragging

[Eagleye]

Gooey

can you explain how I caught a sockeye using wool and and a corkie on the retrieve when my leader was definately pointing downstream as I had reeled in almost all of my line and the fish was hooked dead center on the top lip?

[TtotheE]

I've had fish hooked on the near side while bar fishing, fly fishing,  spooning,  bb,  even flossed.  Lets say,  for a gear fisher,  you're not trying to get the fish to bite the HOOK,  but the lure/spinner/spoon what have you.  So if a fish goes to bite the top end of the lure,  and you set the hook incidentally hooking outside the jaw,  the fish is now snagged?  Perhaps it is "foul" hooked,  in the means that it hasn't been hooked where you intended to hook the fish,  which in the case of gear,  inside the mouth.  But since your intention was not to hook it on the chin,  I can't call you a snagger.

For those who feel that flossing is getting the fish to bite,  please compare the ratio between hooks embedded outside the mouth far side,  inside,  and near side.  For the most part,  a fish hooked outside the far side during the "swing" part of the drift, usually indicates that the fish weren't going for your offering.

I respect both sides of this argument,  but I feel that in the end it does end up in the hands of the authorities to enforce what they feel are the regulations in simple black and white.  The fact that the english language allows for such varied interpretations gives room for users to use the rules in the manner that suits them best.  If the regulations specifically read "do not floss",  I'm sure the population will adhere to those wishes.  If they do not,  then they are truly snaggers.

[TtotheE]

Gooey

can you explain how I caught a sockeye using wool and and a corkie on the retrieve when my leader was definately pointing downstream as I had reeled in almost all of my line and the fish was hooked dead center on the top lip?

Eagleye,  there are situations where sockeye will bite,  even in the Fraser.  The single incident does not reflect what happens during the sockeye season.  If everybody were to be hooking socks dead center on the top lip during an almost completed retrieve,  I don't think this conflict of interest would be present to begin with.

All fish bite in the fraser,  but the conditions have to be met and the locations of these fish found.

[Gooey]

Thank you for your post TtotheE...I agree with just about everything you said:

Hardware fishing for coho (spoons, spinner, jigs) all can lead to hook ups around the mouth but it that case (or my pink worm example) that falls within the grey area were outside the immediate area of mouth would be acceptable.

1 in 100 socs or pinks are caught on the retrieve (I got one like that my self this year) so to referrance that one fish is pointless unless you pressure that technique and get ALL your fish that way.

Doug: when will it stop...for me: when the norm is to respect when DFO asks us not to floss and when flossing is not accepted as a STANDARD way to hook fish in smaller, clear water rivers (ie the KWB floss gong show is gone) etc. 

[Gooey]

Doug, I had great "success" with a bare hook...as well, why use the long leaders...5 years ago 5-10 foot leaders were used.  Now this year I am seeing 15 and even 20 foot leaders...WHY???

Because the more line between your weight and your hook, the more chance of a fish intersecting it,  longer leader equals a bigger sweep/ark = increased flossing opportunities. 

If I had poor results with a bare hook or a guy BB a 2 foot leader had the same results as a 20 foot leader, maybe I could question whether or not they are snagged - but thats not the case. 

Doug, do you hounestly think that a fish hooked on  a BB and a 10 foot+ leader bit?!?  If they did actaully bite that presentation, then are you going to fish coho and springs on the vedder this fall like that???  I would love to hear your answer to that question.

PS - When is anyone going to explain to me how flossing fits into DFO suggested fishing techniques as describe in this quote for a third time now: To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth.

[Steelhawk]

Scales informed us that there is a good run of springs to enjoy, and the thread now turns into another debate thread, LOL.

There is too much personal agenda about ethics.  Perhaps people should cut that off.  Time to focus on sharing techniques on spooning or flyfishing for pinks.  After that the ho's are around the corner.  Spend time writing something that will help the newbie fishermen instead of endlessly engaging in chastising one another. 

The top rods on this forum can help the newbie fishermen from turning the KWB area into a floss gong show, by sharing some other techniques and insights to fish effectively, so newbies do not zero in on the crowded spots.  Stay tuned.

[Stratocaster]

Gooey I respect your views on selective methods during sockeye closures

Doug, I had great "success" with a bare hook...as well, why use the long leaders...5 years ago 5-10 foot leaders were used.  Now this year I am seeing 15 and even 20 foot leaders...WHY???

Because the more line between your weight and your hook, the more chance of a fish intersecting it,  longer leader equals a bigger sweep/ark = increased flossing opportunities. 

If I had poor results with a bare hook or a guy BB a 2 foot leader had the same results as a 20 foot leader, maybe I could question whether or not they are snagged - but thats not the case. 

Doug, do you hounestly think that a fish hooked on  a BB and a 10 foot+ leader bit?!?  If they did actaully bite that presentation, then are you going to fish coho and springs on the vedder this fall like that???  I would love to hear your answer to that question.

PS - When is anyone going to explain to me how flossing fits into DFO suggested fishing techniques as describe in this quote for a third time now: To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth.

I was just trying to make a point.  Personally, my beliefs could be very different.  The problem is personal beliefs aren't enforceable in a court of law.  If someone were to step in beside me on the vedder and casted out with a 10 foot leader and BB normally (without ripping the water) and hooked a fish in the mouth, I may personally believe that he flossed that fish but I'd be foolish to try and accuse him of snagging or flossing because I have no way of proving that.

BTW anybody that has seen me and my roe stained vest on Vedder would be able to vouch for the way I fish.

[Gooey]

Thats just it doug, too many new fishermen are walking in with BBs and 10 foot leaders and using that as their mainstay when fishing the vedder and other similiar rivers. 

they are exposed to flossing on the fraser and are carying it elsewhere, to a places (where by the sounds of things ) you and I both agree it doesnt belong.

I must say Doug, I disagree with you on one point: its pretty easy to identify a flossed fish (look at the gear, the presentation, type of water, and where the fish is hooked).  Its easy enuff that DFO ticketed a buddy of mine for a flossed coho (18 inch leader in a slot at the tamahi).

If we are all hounest with ourselves, we wouldnt be having this debate.

Still no takers on expaling how flossing fits into DFO's statement on avoiding snagging a fish???

[Stratocaster]

Thats just it doug, too many new fishermen are walking in with BBs and 10 foot leaders and using that as their mainstay when fishing the vedder and other similiar rivers. 

they are exposed to flossing on the fraser and are carying it elsewhere, to a places (where by the sounds of things ) you and I both agree it doesnt belong.

I must say Doug, I disagree with you on one point: its pretty easy to identify a flossed fish (look at the gear, the presentation, type of water, and where the fish is hooked).  Its easy enuff that DFO ticketed a buddy of mine for a flossed coho (18 inch leader in a slot at the tamahi).

If we are all hounest with ourselves, we wouldnt be having this debate.

Still no takers on expaling how flossing fits into DFO's statement on avoiding snagging a fish???

To someone with experience I'm sure its not too hard to determine whether the fish they caught were flossed but try explaining to a newbie who just hooked his first fish in the mouth that he should let it go cause you suspect that it was flossed.

I agree that the prevalence of fraser sockeye techniques used in the vedder and chehalis has increased in past few years.  I have not seen it too much myself because I tend to avoid those areas where it is being used.

I don't have a problem with Bottom bouncing in general, I'm just disturbed about how it is being used.  From what I have seen, a lot of the fish are caught while ripping the water at the end of the drift.  On some occasions I have seen some constantly jig away during the drift.This does not give the fish any chance to bite.  BTW I see this done by floatfishers as well.  I don't see very many fish hooked in the mouth using this technique at KWB (from what I've seen). 

My opinion is as long as you use gear thats legal and give the fish a legimate chance to bite then I really cannot argue with how you fish.