Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Eagleye]

The point I was trying to make is that wool and or corkies do "induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth"

 

[Gooey]

My buddy had a great day for whites...he was hammering them on spinner blades...my best roe, wool, etc got me nothing.  Then I noticed he was holding back on his drift a little...the current pushing against the blade stretched the line out and he flossed another 6 springs on a spinner blade! (when you see 6 fish come in with the hook burried in the outside of the scissors...most experienced guys know whats going on)

Eagleeye, u can dress a hook anyway you want to...if you bottom bounce and use 12 foot leaders, you will floss/snagg 99.5% of your fish.  Yes a fish will bite a variety of presentations, but its all just window dressing if the fish is flossed.

any time a fish swims up stream and some gear goes down stream by it, there is a chance that a fish will be flossed.  I am not saying this is an issue...what I am opposed to is people (knowingly or not) doing stuff that greatly  increases the odds of a flossed fish (outside of sockeye openings).

Long leaders is one tell tale sign, bottom bouncing is another abused technigue, too much float line out, sweeping the drift...there is a long list!  Based on my interpretation of DFO statement regarding how to avoid snagging fish ie inducing a bite, I beleive they don't want to have us floss in general.

Like I said, sometimes it just happens but that casual incedent is not the issue...the guys that do nothing but floss or do it unknowingly time and time again, they are the ones that need to be educated AND regulated.

[Fish Assassin]

FA and Like to Fish are key examples of the problem (no offence guys)...no one seems to care that DFO doesnt want us flossing the fraser out side of sockeye season.

Amazing that you manage to extrapolate that I'm a flosser because of my comment that bottom bouncing is a legitimate method of fishing. If you had read my post I said if using a short leader. For the record, let me say that I did not indulge in the sockeye fishery. Let it also be recorded that I have fished 90 days to date this year and have yet to bottom bounce once. All my fish have been caught on bait, and spoons. How am I part of the problem ?

You may not like to hear it, but the reality is that bottom bouncing is a legitimate and ethical method of fishing providing you are using a short leader. Deal with it !

[Gooey]

FA, my apologies, no offence was meant.  As I pointed out people can easily floss with 18 inches of leader...if you sweep your drift and hold back a bit so that the hook travels across the river, you can easily floss a fish with short leaders (not that I am accusing you of that).

I think bottom bouncing (when done right) can be a productive way to coax a fish into a strike.  Problem is 9 out of 10 guys who bottom bounce do so to floss.  Flossing is a bastardization of bottom bouncing that needs to be roped in. 

I am curious to know how many people think bottom bouncing is out of control on rivers like: the vedder, chehalis, and even on the fraser.

I think that to a varying degree flossing is a problem on all those rivers...whats everyone elses opinion?

If people agree that flossing is getting out of control on the vedder, what do you think needs to be done?  What is the root of the problem?  For me those are obvious questions but lets hear what everyone esle thinks.

[All Tangled Up]

I haven't read all the posts in this topic but Gooey, you make some great comments on the different methods of flossing. One of the biggest 'problems' (if you can call it that) that I have seen develop on the Vedder over the years is fly fishers 'flossing' the faster water, like the Tamahi rapids. I used to regard fly fisherman as one of the elitist fishers out there. To be able to entice a fish to take your home made presentation is an art form. Then to see that some of the fly chuckers fish with similar methods to bb'ing, I just shake my head. Don't get me wrong about the negativity of flossing. I look forward to the meat fishery on the Fraser every year because Sockeye is my favorite dinner fare. But to see people floss Coho out of the rapids was truly something I didn't expect. I believe that over the years to come there will be more and more people fly fishing the Vedder with these tactics because of their effectiveness.

[Gooey]

Thank you A.T.U...Another great example of a fine fishing form be bastardized by flossing. 

It was the same 4 years ago on the chehalis when the water ran below the hatchery into the "gun barrel".  Float fishers, bb'ers, and fly fishers alike all slogged those poor springs...after first light it really turned into something sad.

Those fish were so spooked that even the smallest float and finest presentation sent them running.  I met on asian guy there, he said he spent years perfecting this method that worked for both reds and steelhead in the gun barrel.  His method: a pee sized split shot with 5-8 feet of leader down to a hook.  It angered me to see him flog that run.

Guess what...he was the same guy I gave cupcakes to 2 seasons back for BB/flossing the ranger run (a run easily fished with a float).  After I asked him why he BB/flossed that run when he kept foul hooking socks he put a float on...didnt see him snag a single fish after that.  When he had the float on he let it drift strate down the river as opposed to sweeping it.  Now this is a guy that I have seen fishing the ved and chehalis for 6 years...he has some pretty good exposure to the river. 

Its no wonder we have all these newbies buy gear for sockeye and then just running over to the vedder when the coho and whites show up - with the same 3 oz betties and 12 foot leaders.  We need to lead example and DFO needs to clamp down on this flossing beast. 

I think its much better that we act now, to stem flossing.   If we dont we are forcing DFO to further regulate our sport. 

[blaydRnr]

gooey, one of your arguments was your disapproval of bbing outside of the sockeye opening. you specified species like pinks and springs would take bait presentation and you didn't feel it was ethical for anyone to fish for them in that manner.

my question to you is this.... why do you feel it's ok to retain springs caught while bb during the sockeye openings, but then have a change of heart once the sockeye closes?  what's the difference?

you've said before "it's ok to bb during the openings" ... the thing is, springs were caught during those times and most of them were caught by that method.

let's put aside the sockeyes and deal with the springs specifically.

as you say springs bite, therefore would you release one if you caught it while bbing, during a sockeye opening? afterall, we're talking ethics not legality,  right?

also, knowing that there was a possibility of 'flossing' a spring while bbing, why did you partake in it?
once again we're talking ethics...that's your whole argument so i think it's a fair and valid question.

[Matuka Jack]

Doug, I had great "success" with a bare hook...as well, why use the long leaders...5 years ago 5-10 foot leaders were used.  Now this year I am seeing 15 and even 20 foot leaders...WHY???

Because the more line between your weight and your hook, the more chance of a fish intersecting it,  longer leader equals a bigger sweep/ark = increased flossing opportunities. 

If I had poor results with a bare hook or a guy BB a 2 foot leader had the same results as a 20 foot leader, maybe I could question whether or not they are snagged - but thats not the case. 

Doug, do you hounestly think that a fish hooked on  a BB and a 10 foot+ leader bit?!?  If they did actaully bite that presentation, then are you going to fish coho and springs on the vedder this fall like that???  I would love to hear your answer to that question.

PS - When is anyone going to explain to me how flossing fits into DFO suggested fishing techniques as describe in this quote for a third time now: To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth.

Ok Gooey, I'll reply.   I will explain how flossing fits into DFO suggested fishing techniques.

Flossing is a technique where the leader gets pulled through the fishes open mouth and at the end of the leader is the hook.  The hook shank ends up in the fishes mouth and the hook point penetrates where it catches while the hook tries to pass through.  Hence, a successful flossing of the fish (ie. where part of the hook is in the mouth) satisfy the requirement that "anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth".  The fish was induced to take the hook (at least part of it) in its mouth.  You would notice that it did not say the whole hook have to be in its mouth. 

If it is to be the whole hook in the mouth of the fish then most catches will be considered foul hook since in most cases the shaft or part of the hook will be hanging outside the mouth of the fish that was hooked.

It is also incorrect to paraphrase this to mean that it is a requirement that the fish have to bite.  You and many others had made such claims in your post.

The suggestion is implicit, since flossing satisfy the given requirement (to the letter) and it does avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish.  The DFO is carefully worded the statement so as not to sound like they blatantly approve or condone the practice of flossing.

[BwiBwi]

On don't forget to check past post people were catching more sockeye than spring on bar rigs about 3~4 weeks ago.
So is bar fishing selective? NOPE. It's natural bait. Good for catching almost all fish in Fraser.

[Gooey]

#1 - BwiBwi, I know very little about bar fishing so I cant comment, maybe someone else can.

#2 - FF: "a simple little post escalates into this, how pathetic" - this thread in my opinion is a great one, no "yelling" or name calling, just people discussing/debating their positon...whats wrong with that.  If you have no thoughtful input on the subject and you are tired of it, then why post anything - go read the Whites VS Coho thread!

#3 - matuka, your response was disappointing...do you really think a fisherman "induces" a fish to take the hook in its mouth, BY RUNNING LINE THRU ITS MOUTH...until the hook slams into the side of its face??? 

DFO's regs say: anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth.   It doesnt mention running line thru its mouth first.  While I am sure this board represents a multitude of different reading and compreshension levels for its various users, to conclude the underlined sentance above means inducing a STRIKE is the only way i can interpret it. 

Webster definition of INDUCE: to move by persuasion or influence.  Can you hounestly say those sockeye were INDUCED to take the hook in their mouths?  NO they were FORCED to.  If sockeye could be induce into taking a 4/0 gamy with a bit of wool, we could float fish or even still fish then.  The main reason we hook  sockeye is because we of the line and hook travelling down the river as they travel up.

Your positioning is like saying: punching a guy in the face is inducing him to take your fist in his mouth! 

#3 - Blade - I never talk about ethics etc.  I what I am talking about is a fishing method that is over running many fisheries.  Please go back and read all my posts and let me know which one refers to "ethics" or morals. 

To address your spring question, a part of any fishery includes a by product.  Whether its sports, FN, or commercial, this comment is true for all fisheries.   Would I release a spring hooked during the fraser soc opening, no way.  Why, same reason I dont floss the fraser when the socs are closed: I dont beleive (with warm water conditions like this year and with long haul fish) that C&R is a desirable practice on the fraser.  I am willing to retain spring as a by product of a sockeye fishery (which I didnt do this year but have in the past).  Hope thats an acceptable answer for you.

[dennisK]

wow - you mods are fasssst 

[Gooey]

Mod: Gooey, your reply has been forwarded to FF in PM, please keep the personal remarks there so the topic can remain on course, otherwise it will be locked soon.

[Matuka Jack]

#3 - matuka, your response was disappointing...do you really think a fisherman "induces" a fish to take the hook in its mouth, BY RUNNING LINE THRU ITS MOUTH...until the hook slams into the side of its face??? 

Here is the english dictionary definition of the word:

induce
 
SYLLABICATION: in·duce
PRONUNCIATION:   n-ds, -dys
TRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: in·duced, in·duc·ing, in·duc·es
1. To lead or move, as to a course of action, by influence or persuasion. See synonyms at persuade. 2. To bring about or stimulate the occurrence of; cause: a drug used to induce labor. 3. To infer by inductive reasoning. 4. Physics a. To produce (an electric current or a magnetic charge) by induction. b. To produce (radioactivity, for example) artificially by bombardment of a substance with neutrons, gamma rays, and other particles. 5. Biochemistry To initiate or increase the production of (an enzyme or other protein) at the level of genetic transcription. 6. Genetics To cause an increase in the transcription of the RNA of (a gene). 
ETYMOLOGY: Middle English inducen, from Old French inducer, from Latin indcere : in-, in; see in–2 + dcere, to lead; see deuk- in Appendix I.
OTHER FORMS: in·duci·ble —ADJECTIVE
 

I think your perception regarding the moralities regarding flossing is confusing the way you would define the word "induce".  In short, to induce is to cause an event to take place.  Since the flosser causes the hook (or part of it) to be in the fishes mouth then the requirement is satisfied.

I think what is really getting to you is the fact that the fish, in some way, was trapped since they are oblivious to what is taking place as well as being an unwilling participant in the situation.  In summary, you probably think that it is not fair to the fish since they have done nothing to be ending up on the hook.

If you read the DFO's statement carefully, the willingness of the fish to take the hook is not a prerequisite to legally hooking a fish.

If you are disappointed in me, certainly hope not with my ability to interpret the English language.  You can certainly be disappointed that I hold a different point of view. 

If the DFO limits the length of the leader, I would be perfectly ok with it.  I floss for sockeyes only.  There are other gear/tackle configuration that can effectively catch sockeyes.

[dennisK]

#3 - matuka, your response was disappointing...do you really think a fisherman "induces" a fish to take the hook in its mouth, BY RUNNING LINE THRU ITS MOUTH...until the hook slams into the side of its face??? 

There are other gear/tackle configuration that can effectively catch sockeyes.

such as? 

[Gooey]

Matuka, your exact words are: Since the flosser causes the hook (or part of it) to be in the fishes mouth then the requirement is satisfied.

DFO says: To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth.

The simple fact that you use the word "cause" weakens your point.  Try replacing cause with induce in your sentance and it sounds silly, a fisherman can't induce a hook to do anything...but he can induce a fish to bite!

Further more you applied the word "cause"  to the hook not the fish. 

You didnt say the fisherman causes the fish to take the hook in its mouth.  You said he causes the hook (or part of it) to be in the fishes mouth. 

One thing that is clear is that DFO needs to do a better job communicating what their intentions are!