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Author Topic: What came first the fish or the fish eggs  (Read 18110 times)

mark

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Re: What came first the fish or the fish eggs
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2006, 10:06:47 PM »

What no freedom of speech? Thats pretty bad Nina.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2006, 10:09:51 PM by mark »
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Nina

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Re: What came first the fish or the fish eggs
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2006, 12:28:58 AM »

What no freedom of speech? Thats pretty bad Nina.

Huh?  ???
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Steelhawk

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Re: What came first the fish or the fish eggs
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2006, 01:10:45 AM »

I don't think Nina means anything like that.  This is an open forum.  Every one gets a chance to express one's opinion. Lets stay with the intelligent discussion and don't get personal, especially if she is Rod's lady.  ;D  Seriously, no one needs to get upset and respect that every one has the right to speak one's mind.  We can respectfully disagree, and not agree to disrespect.  :)
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Prettyfly

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Re: What came first the fish or the fish eggs
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2006, 01:33:44 AM »

Well.. considering the religion that has given the title "God" to a man... was infact made up by a man trying to stay in control of his kingdom... I hold little belief that "God" the man did any such thing as create something out of nothing.

However, nothing is by chance I think.. I think a variation of said egg was developed as a pre-fish species swam near a changing underwater land mass, exposing it to different food sources and toxins which over time and many generations later created the fish that is continually changing - as are we.

Fish are taking in more toxins from a variety of different sources, thus 'evolving' to adapt. Through the cycle of spawning the eggs are imprented with this new bit of survival information and the next generation mutates to become more adaptable.

Same thing goes for people. We are exposed to radiation levels on a daily basis that - back in the 30's or something, they figured we would be dead from exposure.. but.. we too are mutants as well..

The design scheme of some man who doesn't really exist or a higher power that cannot be labeled because no one is quite sure of what 'it' actually is.
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McWhackit

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Re: What came first the fish or the fish eggs
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2006, 06:30:58 AM »

The argument from personal incredulity,ie. (I can't believe anything that perfect could be anything other than the work of an omnipotent Deity.) is weak. Carl Sagan likened it too a puddle of water deducing the existence of a creator based on how perfectly it fits the hole it finds itself in.
Perfection in nature doesn't exist. The human eye, while supremely adapted to fulfill human needs doesn't see infrared or ultraviolet ends of the spectrum. The nerves that transmit from the photoreceptors too the brain run directly through the line of sight resulting in a blind spot. Examples of poor engineering can be supplied for every other organ.
Fishinfever,s mind boggling numbers were calculated by Sir Fred Hoyle, a brilliant astronomer with no background in biology. They were part of a critique of the chemical synthesis theory for the origin of life that Hoyle mounted in support of his own theory that life arrived on earth aboard a comet. Hoyle succeeded in displaying a profound misunderstanding of evolutionary theory by assuming that it works randomly and his numbers have long since been dismissed.
Fishinfever,s entire post is an excellent example of how a body of scientific knowledge is acquired. Any theory that cannot withstand PEER review and critique is either abandoned or modified to better describe the phenomena it attempts too explain.
If you only read one book in your entire life read Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World. If you'd like to read two add Richard Dawkin,s The Blind Watchmaker or The Selfish Gene, listed but not quoted by fishinfever.
and in the words of that champion of atheists everywhere Douglas Adams...so long, and thanks for all the fish.
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Steelhawk

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Re: What came first the fish or the fish eggs
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2006, 11:32:50 AM »

I do respect Carl Sagan and his Cosmo series.  I don't think he is representative of all the scientists out there, nor is he an authority on the origin of life.  There are famous scientists, even Nobel Price winners who harbour strong faith.  Any search by search engine with 'scientists faith in God' will yield links after links of sites, listing famous scientists by names and their position in regard to science & religion. Here is an example:

                 http://www.sciencetruth.com/noted_scientists_who_believe_in_.htm

In the end, as I state before, it is up to the individual how they want to view life and the things around them, to make themselves comfortable with their experiences or knowledge they are endowed with.  There are many areas in science that are still theories. Many so call laws of science have been challenged and fail to stand up to the passage of time. So, to make fundamental conclusion based on science alone can have its faults. On the other hand,  many claims of religion cannot be proven by the strict requirements of science.  Religion must be lived to be felt.  Therefore, to each its own.  :)
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mark

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Re: What came first the fish or the fish eggs
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2006, 04:34:22 PM »

I put a post and you delete mine but you keep yours thats rather hipacriticle.
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mark

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Re: What came first the fish or the fish eggs
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2006, 04:39:14 PM »

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I think for my one post to get taken off is double standard. ???
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Rodney

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Re: What came first the fish or the fish eggs
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2006, 04:44:57 PM »

Mark, when did you make the post?

The last post you made in this thread is this one. If you made one after that, it probably did not go through (did you check it after you just posted it?). Nina didn't delete anything. She usually discusses with me first before deletions or edits are made, and those are usually done by me... because she doesn't want to be the dictator... ;D

mark

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Re: What came first the fish or the fish eggs
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2006, 07:50:53 PM »

No matter Rod its ok lets just get back to fishing. ;)
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Rodney

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Re: What came first the fish or the fish eggs
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2006, 07:52:29 PM »

Some clarification was needed, just wanted to make sure no one was hipacriticle... ;)

Steelhawk

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Re: What came first the fish or the fish eggs
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2006, 12:07:08 AM »

As part of the last link posted, here is a link that tells of what can happen if you are in the academic world and dare to speak of doubt about darwinism. I am surprised that there is so much pressure in that world whereby people can be penalized when they speak their mind and conscience contrary to the view that is politically correct in that world.  This happened to an early proponent of darwinism, Dr. Dean Kenyon, who later changed his view after much consideration.  Here is the link:

               http://www.damaris.org/content/content.php?type=18&id=3

So much for academic freedom or freedom of expression. Sorry to say, that is intimidation, period!

And before you think Darwin's theory of evolution is gospel for all scientific minded people, better check this out:

              http://www.discovery.org/articleFiles/PDFs/100ScientistsAd.pdf
« Last Edit: January 10, 2006, 12:23:40 AM by funfish »
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Black Rider

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Re: What came first the fish or the fish eggs
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2009, 01:14:49 PM »

Hey Fishinfever,

Unfortunately for you, the book from which you are quoting (LIFE: How Did It Get Here) is merely a collection of unadulterated lies.

I’ve been meticulously researching the references in the text by the Watchtower Society (W.S) that you faithfully quoted above (Life: How Did It Get Here). The problem you have is that the W.S. authors (They don’t give their names.) did not, themselves, faithfully quote these authors (like Jastrow, Stanley, and Hitching). Further, many of the quotes are brazenly taken out of context. Further, some of the claims made by the W.S. in their text are brazen lies. I have the text and the original articles referenced right here on my desk as I type this. I am currently itemizing the references in Chapter 4 so I can go look them up.

Notably, many of the comments ascribed to the various authors are only introductory in nature and appear in initial chapters wherein the cited authors, such as Jastrow and Hitching, were simply laying the landscape within which they would then pursue the answers that were the subject of the writings. They faithfully explained the pros and cons to their readers. Then, they set about presenting the evidence thus far collected. Many of the quotes that appear in the W.S. text, and which you cite, are from these introductory commentaries, but are presented by the W.S. as though they were the cited author’s conclusions. If you want to know what Hitching, Stanley, Jastrow, Dawkins, and others truly thought, you’ll need to read the referenced material.

Here is Jastrow’s conclusion from his work “The Enchanted Loom” (Cited by the W.S. and source of the quote you wrote above), page 101, “As with all historical evidence, the proof of man’s animal origins is circumstantial, but its cumulative impact is overwhelming. The fact of evolution is not in doubt.” Query: Why didn’t the W.S. include this quote in its own text, LIFE?

This is what Hitching said on p. 12 of the same text you cited, The Neck of the Giraffe, “Despite the many believers in Divine creation who dispute this [evolution] (including about half the adult population of the United States, according to some opinion polls), the probability that evolution has occurred approaches certainty in scientific terms.” Query: Why didn’t the W.S. include this quote in its own text, LIFE?

As an example of the brazen lies told by the W.S., go to page 20 of the LIFE text. There you will find the following quote beneath a graphic depiction of three extinct species, the Eohippus (common name North American Horse), Archaeopteryx, and Lungfish.

“Some of the classic cases of darwinian change in the fossil record … have had to be
discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information.” — David Raup,
Chicago’s Field Museum of Natural History.

The actual quote, however, from Raup’s original article reads as follows:

“The record of evolution is still surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer
examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin’s time. By this I mean
that some of the classic cases of darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the
evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a
result of more detailed information – what appeared to be a nice simple progression
when relatively few data were available now appears to be much more complex and
much less gradualistic.”

Nowhere in Raup’s article does he suggest that evolution was no longer a viable theory. He was outlining the distinctions between two competing evolutionary theories: The Darwinian model of gradualism, and a newer theory whereby there are spikes in evolutionary advances, called Punctuated Equilibrium. Nowhere in Raup’s article did he state that there were no longer any known examples of transitional species.

The graphic depictions that appear above the misquote in the LIFE text, however, all have large X’s through them, indicating that they all are no longer considered transitional species. Problem is, Raup never mentioned Archaeopteryx or Lungfish in the cited, five-page, article. Why not? Because, to this day, those two species are still considered examples of transitional species. How do we know that the W.S. knew this when they published LIFE and decided to mislead their readers? Because in one of the very next references they cite, that by Steven Stanley, The New Evolutionary Timetable, there is a graphic depiction of Archaeopterxy, p. 76, being identified as an example of a transitional species between reptile and birds. The Stanley citation referenced by the W.S. is on p. 77 of Stanley’s book. Are we to understand that the anonymous writers at the W.S. didn’t notice that picture on the opposing page right next to the quote they were mining? Important note here: Raup’s article was written in 1979; whereas Stanley’s book was published in 1981.

I have found dozens of misquotes, which are frankly just lies, in the LIFE text. Query: If what the W.S. has to say is true, what are they hiding with these misquotes and lies? Why are they brazenly lying to their readers?

I suggest you do as I have done and take these people at the W.S. to task by diligently researching each and every citation they have included in their LIFE text. I am only up to Chapter 4 in that text and I have convincing evidence that the reason the authors of that text do not identify themselves is because they knew they were publishing lies. Good Luck.
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Coho Cody

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Re: What came first the fish or the fish eggs
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2009, 03:11:35 PM »

well to sum it all up, you could say who created god?
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Jonny 5

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Re: What came first the fish or the fish eggs
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2009, 04:09:37 PM »

well to sum it all up, you could say who created god?

Nice one!  ;D

I think the the egg came way before the fish... Organisms more primative than fish have been making eggs for the past few billion years...  It would only be logical to predict that the fish evolved from an egg bearing ancestor.

Anyways, I work with biologist who believe in creationism.  Its fun to discuss these things with them, but I am still far from convinced that there was ever anything more than a random event that made life.  I tend to think there is enough evidence that we did just evolve from a chance event.



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