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[Big Steel]

bigsteel
whats wrong with a debate?
 Afraid of the truth!!!

This thread was not created for a debate, it was started to bring the Chehalis situation to light, and to see what could be done to stop it!!  I think that it should get back on topic as well!!

[Addicted To Steel]

Fishman says:

Biffchan it wasn’t you twisting the facts it was addicted… who called the stuff Till instead of outwash.  Which appears to me to be a deliberate attempt to mislead. Suggest you ask the regional district, natives about their concerns about the current status of the river.

What in the world are you talking about "friend"? Can you please show me where I have said anything at all about till or outwash? You better get your facts straight before posting BS on someone else's thread.

And I am now asking you to please discontinue posting your untruths on this thread. I am not asking you to stop posting your views, but please do it on your own thread which you can create on your own please. If people choose to debate this issue with you then fine, but do not lie about things that I have said or written.

Everything I have posted about this proposal is verbatim from the DFO and Ministry of Energy and Mines. When I posted something that was my "opinion", I stated it as such. So please do not say anyone is trying to mislead anyone.  This thread was started to inform, and ask for help, and research. There will be no BS associated with this petition, so please do not bring any into it. If you have problems with any information I have given, you may contact me directly. I will then lead you to the proper people with whom you can raise your concerns with.

If this gravel operation is beneficial to our environment then you have nothing to worry about do you?

[Sandy]

"If this gravel operation is beneficial to our environment then you have nothing to worry about do you?"

well said

Maybe it was my statement re: outwash/till???

[Prettyfly]

I think one of the earliest posts sort of... pointed a negative finger directly at the native band. Could be that this other person has a resource that has not yet been made available to the rest of us.

I'd like to see all the facts. I know what changes can happen over a relatively short period of time with regards to water. My childhood play place was a little creek that ran through our property. Just a little winter run off creek that usually ended up dry by august.. It was perfect, we could ride our bikes throught some parts because it was so shallow.. now the erosion is so bad it's at least a 6ft drop from the original creek bed, to where it is now. That's only been (dare I say only..hehe) 20 years. What ever clear cut logging occured in the upper part of the mountain has severely and negatively affected this little creek. The other creek I used to frequent was a regular creek that supports kokanee, rainbows and suckers. Didn't change for years and years and then about 3 years ago I went there (I had moved away) and noticed that erosion was so bad there as well that they had to do emergency restructuring.

I read in one of the posts that there was clear cutting in the area. This will kill the water system, and leaving it 'as is' is only going to help it die. Unfortunatly no one realized then exactly what clear cutting could do in a short 20 years. if the area is mostly gravel, the river banks aren't going to be able to support it for very long, whether it dries up or erodes away, something has to be done to fix it.

I commend Addicted for all the work he's doing. I certainly hope a solution that benefits the water system first can be found. I'm sure all parties are equally concerned with the future of the river, but benefiting a community as well is nothing to look down at. I'm sure that community has generations more ties to the water and land than anyone on this forum. I'm sure that wasn't Addicted's intention.

[fishman]

I see and the stifling of opinions that differ from your own begins. Its always the same with people trying to cause hysteria and panic without all the facts.

Addicted. How soon you forget what you post.

What in the world are you talking about "friend"? Can you please show me where I have said anything at all about till or outwash? You better get your facts straight before posting BS on someone else's thread.

Here's your exact quote from your post on page 4

“The other key thing here is that in Mosquito's letter to stock holders that full out say that the gravel deposits they are specifically targetting are glacial till, not fluvial outwash “

Here's what the press release actaully  said

The property is underlain by a thick glacial outwash complex possibly having been deposited against occluding glacial ice

So in your own words "You better get your facts straight before posting BS on someone thread"

[fishman]

prettyfly you're right clearcut has occured over the years in most of the upper area, just drive up to Statlu creek and you'll see the huge clearcuts.  In fact it looks in a lot of places along the creek and the river that the entire area is slowly moving into the river.  If this is simply left alone then the river is going to die and maybe some of these not-in-my-backyard types better do a lot more investigation instead of trying to cause mass panic and hysteria.

[Addicted To Steel]

I should suggest that you really READ CAREFULLY WHAT YOU QUOTE PEOPLE AS SAYING!!!!!!! You are trying your hardest to destroy a beneficial thread.

Once again you have lied on this thread.

The quote you have shown and claimed I said is a post written by Biffchan, not I.

As all the readers can see here you are obviously very nervous about something, so nervous you have to lie.

So once again, keep your NONSENSE off of this thread.

READ PAGE 4 FISHMAN. AS YOU CLAIMED YOU HAVE.

I only want what is good for the environment, as does everybody I would hope. You can try to twist anything around you can, but in the end, you will see that I do not choose to play the same game as you Fishman.

It doesn't take readers long to figure someone out Fishman, so unfortunately for you I suppose.

Hysteria is not caused by information gathering, and fact finding, as enlightened people well know.

I am curiouse as to why you will not start your own post Fishman? Maybe you could gain some allies in your favor?

[fishman]

Destroy a beneficial thread.  Wow I must have hit a real nerve!

Sorry, I guess it was biffchan after all the made the remark about the till after all.  But you two sound so much the same its difficult to tell you apart. Maybe your form the same organization.

As for the lies boy that’s a bit of an exaggeration.  So please inform what other lies you are babbling about.

What’s the matter can’t stand a different opinion to your one sided views.  I hate to inform you but last time I looked we lived in a democratic and relatively free society with the freedom the speak ones mind.

I’m sure the moderators of the forum are quite aware of this and will prevent posters from deliberating trying to prevent opposing views from being suppressed.

So now comes the next stage where the name calling and the threats begin. So typical of the radicals who try to create hysteria and fear amongst the uninformed..

As I suggest I think you should follow your own mantra and quit posting half truths and exaggerations so typical of the radicals.

Go ahead phone the Regional District and ask them about the studies done on the Chehalis problems. Talk to the native bands.

As for leaving the thread I’m not the one going around calling people liars!!

As for the rest, game, I didn’t realize that trying to solve major problems in a great fishing river is a game.   The problem I see is you haven’t done your homework on the river and what has happened to it over the past 20 years.

So despite your attempts to suppress an alternative opinion, fishman will continue to post the facts as this we see how this develops. If the project is as bad as you say for the river then it wont proceed, however if its good for the river and resolves a lot of the problems currently identified then it should proceed.  I would strongly suggest a wait and see attitude rather than a stop it at all costs approach.

[fishman]

Furthermore, let me inform you as to who I am. I'm engineer that has been involved in all types of projects throughout the world and as I stated earlier my family and I have fished the Chehalis just about every week for 18 years. We do miss the occasional weekend due to snow, or being out of town.

I have pictures of the river through this period.  So I know the river I've seen what’s happening to it, can look at it from a some what technical view, as well as a fishing view, and I am very passionate about it.

I look on this gravel mining venture as a potential opportunity for us to clean up the river and put it on a more stable course.  The cost of this work being paid for by the mining operation. If we wait for government money it will take forever and will never happen. Even the hatchery has had funding problems. It’s only a matter of time before those large gravel cliffs on the Chehalis and Statlu creeks end up in the river.  If you don’t believe me just drive across the Statlu creek bridge, turn west and drive 600m look across the creek, you’ll see a huge high cliff composed entirely of sand and gravel, currently being cut into by the river when it floods.  Instead of trying to shut the project down we should be making suggestions and becoming involved in the development to ensure it gets done properly and also to ensure that it will solve the problems already outlined. I’m sure the company who is proposing the work would welcome all input of a constructive nature.

Maybe that’s a better approach than this fear mongering and hysteria.

[BwiBwi]

If I remember correctly only active glaciers has glacier outflow (from melted ice). After glacier fully retreated and what's left behind in piles is called till.

[Sterling C]

What’s the matter can’t stand a different opinion to your one sided views.  I hate to inform you but last time I looked we lived in a democratic and relatively free society with the freedom the speak ones mind.

I’m sure the moderators of the forum are quite aware of this and will prevent posters from deliberating trying to prevent opposing views from being suppressed.

Actually this forum is private property.

You still have failed to answer my question. How is removing gravel hundreds of yards away from the river going to improve the state of the river in any way? You keep getting distracted from the issue at hand with you're debating of semantics and dissucssing how we should remove gravel from within the river.

[fishman]

looked up the definition  here they are:

Glacial outwash: Gravel, sand, and silt, commonly stratified, deposited by melt water as it flows from glacial ice. Can be washed of all fines leaving behind partially sorted clean gravel and sand .


Glacial Till
The mass of rocks and finely ground material carried by a glacier, then deposited when the ice melted. Creates an unstratified material of varying composition.  unsorted and unswashed all fines and clays still present.

There is a major difference between the two types. The gravel I've seen on Chehalis and Statlu looks very clean and sorted. I know it's probbaly important to understand the difference between the two.

Mind you the river sure turns red brown when the slides/floods occur in the upper river area. Last time I remember was two years ago and we were trying catch any of eight or nine steelhead we could see in this pool and the river changed to red brown in minutes and rose two feet and that was the end of fishing for the day.  We barely made it back across the river at the hatchery.

bet some of you other guys remember these events.

[BwiBwi]

You see that's what I'm saying. Glacial outwash IS created from active glacier. Since isn't one for thousands of years in that river basin I don't know why it's still called a glacier outwash?

Also the gravel and sand deposited is against occluding glacial ice. Which does not sound like a outwash which is suppose to be in a fan formation.

[fishman]

1.   

How is removing gravel hundreds of yards away from the river going to improve the state of the river in any way?

Well I thought that was kind of obvious, if the gravel located up hill above the river is removed how can it enter the river.  Just look into all those small creeks that flow from the hills into the Chehalis they are all carrying gravel and sand. Slowly moving it toward the river. In flash floods the loading increase dramatically. Now if this was removed and replaced by lake or lakes it would stop the gravel from entering into the system. Even stock the lake with fish. 

You would therefore reduce the scouring in the canyon, shallowing of the pools and the huge amount of gravel being dumped at Easter seal and beyond.  I suppose you could wait 40 years for the trees to grow back, but in the meantime the whole valley is subject to slides and movement of gravel from above the river into the river. That’s what all the various knowledgeable groups are recognizing as a major problem for the river. And thats what I've seen happening in the river over the years.

2. Sure Glacial outwash is created by an active glacial but it gets deposited and therefore is preserved and overtime buried and exposed.  Outwash deposits are easily identified from till by the lack of fines and clays in them.  There are lots of glacial outwash deposits throughout Canada in areas where there are no glaciers, I’ve actually been involved with building highways through a couple.

[Sterling C]

Well I thought that was kind of obvious, if the gravel located up hill above the river is removed how can it enter the river.  Just look into all those small creeks that flow from the hills into the Chehalis they are all carrying gravel and sand. Slowly moving it toward the river. In flash floods the loading increase dramatically. Now if this was removed and replaced by lake or lakes it would stop the gravel from entering into the system. Even stock the lake with fish.

Ok first of all, the area that they are planning to remove gravel from is rather small in comparison to the total area of the watershed below the lake. Even if you were correct in your logic it still wouldn't make a huge difference. Also, do you really think that Mosquito will be allowed to remove gravel from within a close proximity to tributary streams? I doubt it.