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[penn]

 So you guys all planning to stop living in your houses made from lumber that came from trees that came from clear cuts ? Stop supporting Tim Hortons and such places that also violate environmental extremism ? No doubt you guys drive vehicles that burn fossil fuels that are oh so bad , to get to the river to go fishing . And then go catch fish that get no enjoyment whatsoever from the expearience , caught and released,  or otherwise . I bet each of you could have yourselves subjected to scrutiny in your personnel lives and come out glowing , right?
What hypocrisy , extremism is all about "what can I criticize some one else for but have no intention of fulfilling myself " .
When you all admit you occupy space that could have been left natural and do what is necessary to change that , then and only then will you not be hypocrites . What that means is take yourself out of nature because you don't live naturally , donate your property to be restored to nature and then remove yourself from the planet because it can't be done  , you all have to live unnaturally .
Don't like what I got to say?  Then admit you all compromise to exist  and that is what we all do to live . Get off your "holier then thou" high horses , all of Vancouver was a forest once that was clear cut for your existence here and no one seems to have a problem with that .

[dennyman]

Wow, a person tries to make some suggestions for improvement so that the Salmon stocks can be salvaged.  The problem with government officials is that they think only in a short time window. They don't think ahead to the type of world that we should  leave behind for futuire generations. Oh the governments pay it great lip service, but what is their great vision of B.C. for instance 50 or even 100 years from now. From the rate we are going at, I am afraid there will be little or no wild salmon, Steelhead will be a fond memory that people talk about. And our forests will be decimated and our river systems polluted. Were it not for the efforts of various groups and concerned sportsmen our wildlife and evironment would be in far worse shape than it presently is.

[younggun]

u wait, once the sockeye are gone, they'll put a dam on the fraser.

[bbronswyk2000]

So you guys all planning to stop living in your houses made from lumber that came from trees that came from clear cuts ? Stop supporting Tim Hortons and such places that also violate environmental extremism ? No doubt you guys drive vehicles that burn fossil fuels that are oh so bad , to get to the river to go fishing . And then go catch fish that get no enjoyment whatsoever from the expearience , caught and released,  or otherwise . I bet each of you could have yourselves subjected to scrutiny in your personnel lives and come out glowing , right?
What hypocrisy , extremism is all about "what can I criticize some one else for but have no intention of fulfilling myself " .
When you all admit you occupy space that could have been left natural and do what is necessary to change that , then and only then will you not be hypocrites . What that means is take yourself out of nature because you don't live naturally , donate your property to be restored to nature and then remove yourself from the planet because it can't be done  , you all have to live unnaturally .
Don't like what I got to say?  Then admit you all compromise to exist  and that is what we all do to live . Get off your "holier then thou" high horses , all of Vancouver was a forest once that was clear cut for your existence here and no one seems to have a problem with that .

I have been saying the same thing on these websites for years. I am glad that someone else feels the same way I do!!!!

[Geff_t]

u wait, once the sockeye are gone, they'll put a dam on the fraser.

  Nope once they wipe out the sturgeon then they will dam it. Mind you it is the collapse of the salmon stock that will eventually wipe out the sturgeon on the fraser, the eagles and bear on the other rivers and the whales in the ocean.

[Geff_t]

So you guys all planning to stop living in your houses made from lumber that came from trees that came from clear cuts ? Stop supporting Tim Hortons and such places that also violate environmental extremism ? No doubt you guys drive vehicles that burn fossil fuels that are oh so bad , to get to the river to go fishing . And then go catch fish that get no enjoyment whatsoever from the expearience , caught and released,  or otherwise . I bet each of you could have yourselves subjected to scrutiny in your personnel lives and come out glowing , right?
What hypocrisy , extremism is all about "what can I criticize some one else for but have no intention of fulfilling myself " .
When you all admit you occupy space that could have been left natural and do what is necessary to change that , then and only then will you not be hypocrites . What that means is take yourself out of nature because you don't live naturally , donate your property to be restored to nature and then remove yourself from the planet because it can't be done  , you all have to live unnaturally .
Don't like what I got to say?  Then admit you all compromise to exist  and that is what we all do to live . Get off your "holier then thou" high horses , all of Vancouver was a forest once that was clear cut for your existence here and no one seems to have a problem with that .

  I am not saying that we all live the greenest lives but at least most of us on here are doing something to help the environment and making our rivers the best possible habitat for the fish that do return. I guess that would be considered carbon offsets. I know myself I try to do as much as I can by helping out by volunteering many hours at a local hatchery as well as volunteering with a salmon enhancement program and habitat restoration.

  The only thing the fish farmers are doing is destroying the habitat they are using but also destroying other natural life and they do not even care and either does the Liberal government. The only thing they care about is lining their pockets by destroying Beautiful BC

[penn]

So you guys all planning to stop living in your houses made from lumber that came from trees that came from clear cuts ? Stop supporting Tim Hortons and such places that also violate environmental extremism ? No doubt you guys drive vehicles that burn fossil fuels that are oh so bad , to get to the river to go fishing . And then go catch fish that get no enjoyment whatsoever from the expearience , caught and released,  or otherwise . I bet each of you could have yourselves subjected to scrutiny in your personnel lives and come out glowing , right?
What hypocrisy , extremism is all about "what can I criticize some one else for but have no intention of fulfilling myself " .
When you all admit you occupy space that could have been left natural and do what is necessary to change that , then and only then will you not be hypocrites . What that means is take yourself out of nature because you don't live naturally , donate your property to be restored to nature and then remove yourself from the planet because it can't be done  , you all have to live unnaturally .
Don't like what I got to say?  Then admit you all compromise to exist  and that is what we all do to live . Get off your "holier then thou" high horses , all of Vancouver was a forest once that was clear cut for your existence here and no one seems to have a problem with that .

I have been saying the same thing on these websites for years. I am glad that someone else feels the same way I do!!!!

Exactly why no one listens to these guys . Make up bs by the truck load and pass it on as though it is fact on these forums .
No one here showed up 2 years ago at the townhall meetings when all the discussions about gravel extraction were going on . Now make up a revisionist history about what went down and how it was all industry getting their way with govt. What a load of bs , i was at those meetings and there were no David Suzuki's nor anyone from here present . Now make up stuff about how the government is being dishonest about it , when the dishonesty is here on this forum. Sorry but you were all to afraid to face the masses back and present your nonsense then, but here on a discreet forum you make all these false accusations .
I for one will let the government know that they are accountable to all , not just the extremists . It was the public that called for the gravel extraction not industry . Industry had to be persuaded to do it as it was not very lucrative to do considering that river gravel is not prime . DFO was very apologetic at that time , claiming it was not their fault gravel extraction had been neglected for so long and had been open to it for several years prior , but there were no takers . Gov. at the time pointed their finger at DFO of course saying they were the hold up , we the citizens of course demanded that whoever was to blame , that the buck had to stop and the job get done.
As for Suzuki's group , after the fact , they can only oppose , but have no solutions . Instead rely on misinformation to try and dupe the public into believing their side.

[penn]

So you guys all planning to stop living in your houses made from lumber that came from trees that came from clear cuts ? Stop supporting Tim Hortons and such places that also violate environmental extremism ? No doubt you guys drive vehicles that burn fossil fuels that are oh so bad , to get to the river to go fishing . And then go catch fish that get no enjoyment whatsoever from the expearience , caught and released,  or otherwise . I bet each of you could have yourselves subjected to scrutiny in your personnel lives and come out glowing , right?
What hypocrisy , extremism is all about "what can I criticize some one else for but have no intention of fulfilling myself " .
When you all admit you occupy space that could have been left natural and do what is necessary to change that , then and only then will you not be hypocrites . What that means is take yourself out of nature because you don't live naturally , donate your property to be restored to nature and then remove yourself from the planet because it can't be done  , you all have to live unnaturally .
Don't like what I got to say?  Then admit you all compromise to exist  and that is what we all do to live . Get off your "holier then thou" high horses , all of Vancouver was a forest once that was clear cut for your existence here and no one seems to have a problem with that .

  I am not saying that we all live the greenest lives but at least most of us on here are doing something to help the environment and making our rivers the best possible habitat for the fish that do return. I guess that would be considered carbon offsets. I know myself I try to do as much as I can by helping out by volunteering many hours at a local hatchery as well as volunteering with a salmon enhancement program and habitat restoration.

  The only thing the fish farmers are doing is destroying the habitat they are using but also destroying other natural life and they do not even care and either does the Liberal government. The only thing they care about is lining their pockets by destroying Beautiful BC

Ok , I need to clarify , that I didn't wade into this to be involved in fish farming talk as you can see from my above post . But I've read for some time some of the gravel topic here and have refrained from getting into it before . But from so many other areas I've seen so much dishonesty from the environmentalist side that i do take most claims from such groups with a very big grain of salt these days. Try reading Patrick Moore's website . He's a founder of Greenpeace , but have a look what he says now .
I believe in solutions not confrontations , but extremism never leads to solutions and David Suzuki's group is no better then Greenpeace IMO .
My point is that all of us live in a compromise with  nature and some of us live a double life pointing the finger at others while doing the same ourselves . Our natural state would be to live in small groups as hunter-gatherer's , but to go back to that is not possible and we have to live apart from nature due the human population being to big to live that way again . Imagine 6 billion of us hunting for a living , not going to happen . So to those that would like to draw things to their logical conclusion . this would mean dramatically reducing our population  . Now who of you is going to lead by example going that way?

[chris gadsden]

So you guys all planning to stop living in your houses made from lumber that came from trees that came from clear cuts ? Stop supporting Tim Hortons and such places that also violate environmental extremism ? No doubt you guys drive vehicles that burn fossil fuels that are oh so bad , to get to the river to go fishing . And then go catch fish that get no enjoyment whatsoever from the expearience , caught and released,  or otherwise . I bet each of you could have yourselves subjected to scrutiny in your personnel lives and come out glowing , right?
What hypocrisy , extremism is all about "what can I criticize some one else for but have no intention of fulfilling myself " .
When you all admit you occupy space that could have been left natural and do what is necessary to change that , then and only then will you not be hypocrites . What that means is take yourself out of nature because you don't live naturally , donate your property to be restored to nature and then remove yourself from the planet because it can't be done  , you all have to live unnaturally .
Don't like what I got to say?  Then admit you all compromise to exist  and that is what we all do to live . Get off your "holier then thou" high horses , all of Vancouver was a forest once that was clear cut for your existence here and no one seems to have a problem with that .

  I am not saying that we all live the greenest lives but at least most of us on here are doing something to help the environment and making our rivers the best possible habitat for the fish that do return. I guess that would be considered carbon offsets. I know myself I try to do as much as I can by helping out by volunteering many hours at a local hatchery as well as volunteering with a salmon enhancement program and habitat restoration.

  The only thing the fish farmers are doing is destroying the habitat they are using but also destroying other natural life and they do not even care and either does the Liberal government. The only thing they care about is lining their pockets by destroying Beautiful BC

Ok , I need to clarify , that I didn't wade into this to be involved in fish farming talk as you can see from my above post . But I've read for some time some of the gravel topic here and have refrained from getting into it before . But from so many other areas I've seen so much dishonesty from the environmentalist side that i do take most claims from such groups with a very big grain of salt these days. Try reading Patrick Moore's website . He's a founder of Greenpeace , but have a look what he says now .
I believe in solutions not confrontations , but extremism never leads to solutions and David Suzuki's group is no better then Greenpeace IMO .
My point is that all of us live in a compromise with  nature and some of us live a double life pointing the finger at others while doing the same ourselves . Our natural state would be to live in small groups as hunter-gatherer's , but to go back to that is not possible and we have to live apart from nature due the human population being to big to live that way again . Imagine 6 billion of us hunting for a living , not going to happen . So to those that would like to draw things to their logical conclusion . this would mean dramatically reducing our population  . Now who of you is going to lead by example going that way?

If you think there is a dishonest slant being put on this gravel issue on the Fraser from the several environmental groups presently inbvolved in this you would be very very disappointed what has been coming from some government ministries. I can understand that though as I do not believe you have not been at the table like many of us have been the last while unless "penn" stands for Mr Penner. I also am not sure if you knew about the Big Bar incident two years ago when milions of eggs and alevins were destroyed by the building of a causeway that dewatered a prime chum and pink spawning area. There is no excuse for that being allowed to happen, I am sure most will agree with that.

The positive thing is if it was not for "environmentalists" our planet would be in a worse shape than it is at this time.
 I know we feel good in some small ways on this gravel issue as I feel we have saved some precious fish and sturgeon habitat and have tried to get the government to do things the way they are charged by the Fisheries Act to do.
I donot think one can disagree with a group of unpaid volunteers doing their best to try and protect the environment for future generations. What has been done in the past cannot be changed but we can certainly change things starting right now and in the future. I guess we can all ask ourselves, what are we going to do to make that happen?

[penn]

 No Chris I am in no way related to Barry Penner . No I was not at those meetings you were at , but where were you  2 years ago when all the town hall meetings were happening ?? You may be a volunteer but David suzuki and his group make their living off this stuff . For them as well as other groups , no controversy= no livelyhood .
Why don't you work on a solution yourself  Chris  ,instead of trying to paint a false picture of what it's all about ? Simply trying to end extraction is not going to happen woth out a fight from concerned citizens .
With Suzuki's group involved there will never be a solution . This is the guy who stated on the news  " What ever you do, it will never be enough" . How can that be worked with?

[Terry D]

At least you're not alone in this. In the UK, angler's apathy is rampant. There are a few trying to fight for the rights of all anglers, but it is an uphill struggle when all the anglers in the land don't put their votes behind their true beliefs or are more than happy to sit back and let the 'dedicated few' put the time and effort in on their behalf. As always, money speaks and money wins.

To all those doing the fighting, you have my full respect.

[Nicole]

Another reason to vote anything but Liberals next election:

http://www.waterpowermagazine.com/story.asp?sectioncode=130&storyCode=2051598

Plutonic Power, GE submit bids for Canadian hydro projects

Plutonic Power Corporation and GE Energy Financial Services have submitted bids for the Upper Toba and Bute Inlet projects, which - if approved - would be Canada's largest single private sector hydroelectric generation investment at more than C$4B.

The submissions into BC Hydro's 2008 Clean Power Call outline the development of approximately 1200MW of run-of-river hydroelectric capacity in the Toba and Bute Inlets along British Columbia's southwest coast, where GE and Plutonic Power Corporation are already building the 196MW East Toba River and Montrose Creek hydroelectric project.

The Upper Toba Valley hydroelectric project, with a generation capacity of approximately 166MW, consists of three facilities that will connect to the BC Hydro grid through a 230kV line already under construction for the East Toba River and Montrose Creek project. The project - which will take advantage of infrastructure already in place in the Toba Valley - is expected to be permitted by the end of the second quarter in 2009.

The 1027MW Bute Inlet project consists of 17 facility sites in three areas: the Homathko, Southgate and Orford Rivers. The Bute Projects have been registered with both provincial and federal permitting authorities. A formal application for an environmental assessment certificate is expected to be submitted in late 2009.

This week's bid submissions are in response to BC Hydro's Request for Proposals issued in June for 5000GWh per year of seasonal and hourly firm energy to help make British Columbia electricity self-sufficient by 2016, and meet demand using 90% clean domestic generation sources. BC Hydro says it intends to award energy purchase agreements to winning bidders from April-June 2009.


With capital costs estimated at more than $4B, GE Energy Financial Services intends to fund or arrange equity contributions to the projects, subject to such conditions as satisfactory due diligence and formal documentation, as well as approvals by investment committees, boards of directors and regulators. GE Energy Financial Services also has the right to fund or arrange the debt required for the projects.

'Today's submission is the culmination of four years of planning, engineering, consultation, permitting and licensing,' said Plutonic Power Corporation Vice-Chair and CEO, Donald McInnes. 'We are grateful to our First Nations partners, and the cities of Powell River and Campbell River for supporting our bids, reflecting broad public endorsement. These projects will provide long-term economic and social benefits to these First Nations and communities in addition to providing BC Hydro with clean electricity.'

These projects will expand GE Energy Financial Services' US$4B portfolio of renewable energy investments worldwide.

'Our joint bids with Plutonic show our support of green energy generation in British Columbia, potential progress toward our goal of investing US $6 billion in renewable energy worldwide by the end of 2010, and reinforcement of GE's ecomagination, a program to help our customers meet their environmental goals while expanding our own portfolio of cleaner energy projects,' said Mark Tonner, Managing Director of Canada at GE Energy Financial Services.